FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[racechick]

Here's an excerpt from an article by Ed Straw
"There are no suggestions that the Red Bull is illegal, and the car passes all of the load tests imposed upon it. the Milton keynes team has invested heavily in carbon-composite technology in recent years, and it is beleved that the secret of the bodywork characteristics lies in the way its composits are structured. Mclaren will also be pouring resources into developing its own flexible-bodywork technology, but has a long battle to get beck on a par with Red Bull. Such specialisd designs must be developed in-house, meaning that there is no short-cut that will allow McLaren or others to close the gap."

So thats why there's no answer to Red Bull yet. Come on McLaren...be much more fun when you've got a bendy car too

[vlad]

Newey - Genius!

[Jensonb]

Thats how CROOKS and DRUGLORDS think,how to one up the law,on lacing their drugs with all kinds of things so they pass customs and drug sniffing canines!

And if they get caught, they will get burnt bad. I could see revoking of champion ships.

Pretty sure that's impossible.

[vlad]

[texasmr2]

Now now lets not blame the ingenuity of the engineers for finding those so called 'loop holes' lets blames the FIA for not strictly adhereing too the rules. I bet the FIA has learned something from all this concerning RB's front wing. Yet then again isn't that one of the things we all love about F1, finding a way around the rules without actually breaking them? Too many times I read "it's not always black and white" but in all honesty it is so who is actually to blame the team or the FIA?

Hell I don't know but I do know I would like stricter governing by the FIA, they have everyone scratching their heads from race to race. Did any of that make sense I almost confused myself ?

[Diplomatic Immunity]

Trust me, there are many people in my life that have "PASSED TESTS"

However, does the fact that one can merely "PASS" mean that he or she deserves a job?

No...Usually a job always goes to the most qualified individual, you know, the person that has both brains and works the hardest.

To relate this to sports, its kind of difficult to fault RED BULL considering the "Rules" allow such a wing to be used...However, humans are different than any other creature on Earth b/c not only can we SEE how low RB's wing is to the ground under force...but we are also unique in the fact that we can speak our minds. Any advantage that has the potential to make an individual or team have "SUPER HUMAN" capabilities, our brains just automatically begin to trigger these thoughts

Cheater...He's young and fast though, can't fault Seb...I'm not an imbecile, something is up with that wing, etc.

We deserve the right as fans of the sport (old/new/ or in btwn) to QUESTION whether or not the RB7 front wing is Legal

Eyes don't lie...

[texasmr2]

The difference is just amazing between the two.

[spankyham]

Now, that picture clearly shows the RB7 wing at a point lower than the plank (reference plane for this front wing). That is specifically prohibited by the rules.

[darwin dali]

So Red Bull has abused a loop hole but no other team can figure it out. Bravo to them. Sure it might be in the category of "Unethical", but its nice to see a team going out side the box to achieve technical might.

Can't help but agree with you. I don't think they've abused a loophole, just been clever and spent ages working on stuff that goes into their carbon fibre. Its clever, they should be congratulated. Is it against the rules? Apparantly not. Is it against the spirit of the rules?...yes. Whose fault is that? The FIA's fault.

[spankyham]

On How Forum Members Interpret Events So Far:-

I find it very interesting philosophically how some people interpret circumventing/breaking rules as either cheating or clever. It's even more interesting how the interpretation can change based on who's under the spotlight.

Rules say you can't deliberately crash - Flavio/Senna deliberately crash - Flavio/Senna didn't fail any test - is that clever or cheating?

In 2010, rules say you can't give team orders - Ferrari tell Massa Fernando is faster than you - Ferrari didn't fail any test - is that clever or cheating?

On Christian Horner's Credibility

If I'm not mistaken, when the F-Duct legality issue came up, Christian said something along these lines - the F-Duct may be strictly legal according to the rules but McLaren are in breach of the "Spirit of the Law".

Again, when Ferrari ran new components on their car for one of their allowable media/filming days in 2010, CH accused Ferrari of breaching the "Spirit of the Law".

Do we interpret that all as meaning its ok to break specific laws, but not what CH thinks is the "Spirit" of the law

On Passing Tests Makes Everything OK

Would you advise your kids they are being clever if they find a way to cheat on their tests and pass their exams?

An Example of Rule V's Test

The Rule - Only the owner of a bank account with an ATM card can take their money out of that account. Pretty well accepted rule in society.

The Test - At each ATM you must hold the card and know the pin number to withdraw funds from an account.

A teenage boy withdraws $500 using an ATM card from an account, with correct PIN being entered. The ATM card database shows that the card belongs to Mavis Johnson, a 60 year old woman who had her bag with her credit card stolen.

The boy hasn't failed any test - but how many people think his actions are ok and clever?

[Jensonb]

On Passing Tests Makes Everything OK

Would you advise your kids they are being clever if they find a way to cheat on their tests and pass their exams?

That is a very clever way to describe why it is that the test being flawed is a big issue.

[bigpat]

A couple things:

Rules are rules, there is no such thing as "against the spirit of the rules". No one can describe what the "spirit" is. It is only included in rules to TRY and cover a solution that the rulemakers never thought of... All rules and subsequent tests are defined by strict numerical values (with tolerances), and procedures. If you pass it, your car is legal. Simple.

Everyone else protests because they can't figure it out, or access the same technology. There are numerous examples of this in F1....

There is an argument that carbon fibre is supposed to be insanely stiff, and so the nosecone shouldn't flex. There is no material on this planet that does not exhibit SOME deformation under load. Therefore nothing can be made infinitely stiff. On the contrary, some resilience has to be allowed for to allow for vibration, shock, and minor impact loading.

You can layup a carbon component to be flexible in one plane, but stiff in another. The proof.. carbon flexure pivots on the wishbones of an F1 car......

I believe Red Bull have done 2 things:
1. Made the nosecone with a novel carbon lay-up format (obviously thinner in parts) that allows the nose to droop. This is clever composites engineering. I do not believe they are using a trick carbon fibre suggested elsewhere....

2. As I suggested back on page 3? of this thread,where the nosebox mounting have a strong extension spring inside the mechanism. The pic from Silverstone last year of Vettel's car, where you can see a gap at the top of the nosecone/chassis interface, tells my that I'm on the right track here.

Quite often in F1, complex looking issues, have very simple (but clever) solutions......

In order to fix this problem, the test should be conducted wit th entire wing/nose assembly attached to the chassis. I think by Barcelona we may see a new test procedure be enforced.

[texasmr2]

On How Forum Members Interpret Events So Far:-

I find it very interesting philosophically how some people interpret circumventing/breaking rules as either cheating or clever. It's even more interesting how the interpretation can change based on who's under the spotlight.

Rules say you can't deliberately crash - Flavio/Senna deliberately crash - Flavio/Senna didn't fail any test - is that clever or cheating?

In 2010, rules say you can't give team orders - Ferrari tell Massa Fernando is faster than you - Ferrari didn't fail any test - is that clever or cheating?

On Christian Horner's Credibility

If I'm not mistaken, when the F-Duct legality issue came up, Christian said something along these lines - the F-Duct may be strictly legal according to the rules but McLaren are in breach of the "Spirit of the Law".

Again, when Ferrari ran new components on their car for one of their allowable media/filming days in 2010, CH accused Ferrari of breaching the "Spirit of the Law".

Do we interpret that all as meaning its ok to break specific laws, but not what CH thinks is the "Spirit" of the law

On Passing Tests Makes Everything OK

Would you advise your kids they are being clever if they find a way to cheat on their tests and pass their exams?

An Example of Rule V's Test

The Rule - Only the owner of a bank account with an ATM card can take their money out of that account. Pretty well accepted rule in society.

The Test - At each ATM you must hold the card and know the pin number to withdraw funds from an account.

A teenage boy withdraws $500 using an ATM card from an account, with correct PIN being entered. The ATM card database shows that the card belongs to Mavis Johnson, a 60 year old woman who had her bag with her credit card stolen.

The boy hasn't failed any test - but how many people think his actions are ok and clever?

Nice analogy/interpretation and I do not honestly think anyone here disagree's with your point yet these 'loop holes' are and have been a part of F1 (racing in general) since it's inception. I also would like too think that most of us racing fans would like a more clear and defined and ENFORCED rule procedure.

I don't blame a team for their 'interpretation' which meets the guidelines at a certain test but a breach is a breach. Hey maybe I should run for an FIA board position and if elected we would NOT be having this discussion , I'll release the hounds!!!!

Now back to reality if the nose cone is designed in the manner that bigpat has just described a scrutineering team of FIA officials should attend each and every windtunnel test and that would be great imho but with all the cost cutting F1 is trying to accomplish that idea is just a fart in the wind.

[vlad]

Shocking news out today - Red Bull cheating confirmed. It has been confirmed today by the FiA that a secret tube running from the bottom of Vettel's car seat to the fuel input line has been found. This has allowed highly explosive gases to be added to the RB7 fuel giving bursts of energy and speed.


And I have to go to exam now...

[bud]

I hate the different time zones I've had April fools for 15 hours now. Spanky got me good though