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#245454
Playing devil's advocate...

Can anyone provide a single reason the new engines will ruin the sport?


I can give you my reasons for not liking the new engine
1) they are anti green
2) wasting money to make a new engine when the current engine works fine and could be further developed
3) why build a new engine that is less powerful than the current engine
4) it's not leading edge, it's basically an engine that could be made in someone's back yard from parts you can readily purchase - a 12K reving 600HP engine is a pathetic donk by today's standards and will be more pathetic in 2 years time

That should do for now ......
#245503
Ecclestone probably wont live to 2013 to put up a fight.

:director::pray:



Oi Oi, if he keeps our engines the way they are! and doesn't make it Formula bloody asia one then I am okay with it, not that I have anything against Asia but we need more British races! Keep the classics, :censored: these amazing new techno ones? I would prefer France over it any day!

It's not about the money! It's about the people 8-)


But not the asian people eh?
#245515
Playing devil's advocate...

Can anyone provide a single reason the new engines will ruin the sport?


I can give you my reasons for not liking the new engine
1) they are anti green
2) wasting money to make a new engine when the current engine works fine and could be further developed
3) why build a new engine that is less powerful than the current engine
4) it's not leading edge, it's basically an engine that could be made in someone's back yard from parts you can readily purchase - a 12K reving 600HP engine is a pathetic donk by today's standards and will be more pathetic in 2 years time

That should do for now ......

1) That's debatable. The specification is based around the FIA's change to basing engine formulas on fuel efficiency, which takes effect around the same time.
2) That's a spurious complaint at best. The teams keep pointing to not developing the current engines any further as a cost-cutting measure. They do it anyway. But that's beside the point.
3) Fuel efficiency. But since the aim is to come as close to the current speed as possible, raw power isn't relevant. If the speed is similar, the power doesn't matter.
4) That's just a load of BS. I dare you, I DOUBLE DARE YOU to build a turbo-charged I4 with accompanying Energy Recovery Systems to F1 standards delivering the same power, weight and cost as, say, Cosworth do, in your back garden and sell it to an F1 team. Go ahead. Do it. Don't be surprised when they laugh in your face because you've failed miserably to build anything even remotely in the same league as what Mercedes, Renault & co. turn out.
Last edited by Jensonb on 21 Mar 11, 17:20, edited 2 times in total.
#245558
Playing devil's advocate...

Can anyone provide a single reason the new engines will ruin the sport?


I can give you my reasons for not liking the new engine
1) they are anti green
2) wasting money to make a new engine when the current engine works fine and could be further developed
3) why build a new engine that is less powerful than the current engine
4) it's not leading edge, it's basically an engine that could be made in someone's back yard from parts you can readily purchase - a 12K reving 600HP engine is a pathetic donk by today's standards and will be more pathetic in 2 years time

That should do for now ......

1) That's debatable. The specification is based around the FIA's change to basing engine formulas on fuel efficiency, which takes effect around the same time.

You can debate it all you like, but the engine is not going green. Look at the money needed to develop the new engine. Look at how much resources will be used, and, in the end they will manufacture a few engines. The new engine is also spec'd on using rare earths which are a far rarer resource than oil. What's more it's mined by slaves earning a few dollars and the world supply comes from China. And, in the end, all these resources will be wasted on producing an engine that does no more in terms of performance, we just have to waste a huge amount of the worlds resources to make them.

2) That's a spurious complaint at best. The teams keep pointing to not developing the current engines any further as a cost-cutting measure. They do it anyway. But that's beside the point.

Nice word, no truth in it, but nice word. The fact is a huge amount of extra money will be spent to make an engine that does less. The same engine could be enhanced at a fraction of the cost, and we'd get more power rather than less.

3) Fuel efficiency. But since the aim is to come as close to the current speed as possible, raw power isn't relevant. If the speed is similar, the power doesn't matter.

So fuel efficiency is a goal of F1!
Waste hundreds of millions of dollars to make a few engines that will use a little less fuel. Ridiculous proposition. At least you admit the engines will be less powerful. And, to put the power of the new engine into perspective, it will be about what GP2 produces now. Brilliant, not long we will be able to have one of those races where they line up a sedan, a GT and an F1, only thing is, it will be the GT taking off last.

4) That's just a load of BS. I dare dare, I DOUBLE DARE YOU to build a turbo-charged I4 with accompanying Energy Recovery Systems to F1 standards delivering the same power, weight and cost as, say, Cosworth do in your back garden and sell it to an F1 team. Go ahead. Do it. Don't be surprised when they laugh in your face because you've failed miserably to build anything even remotely in the same league as what Mercedes, Renault & co. turn out.

{ignoring BS insult} Go to youtube and search for 4 cyl turbo 600HP. When you get tired of cycling through the golfs and hondas come back and tell me it's not possible. Honestly, get yourself into a garage sometime soon, a 12K reving turbo engine - lol - that's a challenge?

I said elsewhere that I think the FiA, as usual, have got the new engine spec all wrong. They try to make mountains of rules to regulate. What they achieve is to stifle creativity. Instead of writing complex rules they should simply set an objective. In 2013 all teams will be give an annual fuel allowance and a per event fuel allowance, you can even say it will be reduced by 5% per year. Now, if a team wants to make a V12 let them, if another team wants to go turbo, fine.
#245559
Ecclestone probably wont live to 2013 to put up a fight.

:director::pray:



Oi Oi, if he keeps our engines the way they are! and doesn't make it Formula bloody asia one then I am okay with it, not that I have anything against Asia but we need more British races! Keep the classics, :censored: these amazing new techno ones? I would prefer France over it any day!

It's not about the money! It's about the people 8-)


I think us British have more then two hands firmly round the balls of governing F1 without adding another pointless British GP. France needs a Gp bad, shame that such a pivotal and influential country has really nothing to do with F1 at the moment.
#245631
Nice word, no truth in it, but nice word. The fact is a huge amount of extra money will be spent to make an engine that does less. The same engine could be enhanced at a fraction of the cost, and we'd get more power rather than less.

But the engine would be no, or only marginally, more fuel efficient. The goal is a massive improvement in fuel efficiency.

So fuel efficiency is a goal of F1!

Yes it is. The Formula changes, get over it.
Waste hundreds of millions of dollars to make a few engines that will use a little less fuel. Ridiculous proposition. At least you admit the engines will be less powerful. And, to put the power of the new engine into perspective, it will be about what GP2 produces now. Brilliant, not long we will be able to have one of those races where they line up a sedan, a GT and an F1, only thing is, it will be the GT taking off last.

No, the idea is they will use considerably less fuel, and work in tandem with energy recovery systems.

Question. When the F1 cars were slower in the old days, did the racing suck? I seem to recall it didn't.
{ignoring BS insult} Go to youtube and search for 4 cyl turbo 600HP. When you get tired of cycling through the golfs and hondas come back and tell me it's not possible. Honestly, get yourself into a garage sometime soon, a 12K reving turbo engine - lol - that's a challenge?

I'm not going to do that. I dared you to do it. You implied anyone could do it. They can't. These engines are going to be built to highly exacting standards by incredibly skilled engineers. They aren't going to be bags of washers.
I said elsewhere that I think the FiA, as usual, have got the new engine spec all wrong. They try to make mountains of rules to regulate. What they achieve is to stifle creativity. Instead of writing complex rules they should simply set an objective. In 2013 all teams will be give an annual fuel allowance and a per event fuel allowance, you can even say it will be reduced by 5% per year. Now, if a team wants to make a V12 let them, if another team wants to go turbo, fine.

-Shrug- I don't disagree with that idea. But there's still no clear advantage to sticking with the current highly-restricted V8s over Energy-Recovery-Optimised Turbo I4s.
#245659
But the engine would be no, or only marginally, more fuel efficient. The goal is a massive improvement in fuel efficiency.

That's your goal. If you want to watch fuel efficient cars racing go watch some solar challenge.

No, the idea is they will use considerably less fuel

So you think you're going to save enough litres of fuel to compensate for all the resources (hundeds of millions) it's going to take to create, test and develop these engines? The 13 teams would have to eat, drink and wash in fuel for a few centuries to make up that deficit.

...and work in tandem with energy recovery systems.

As I mentioned previously the engine recovery system wastes a far rarer resource on our planet than oil. It is also mined by slaves - very green indeed.

Question. When the F1 cars were slower in the old days, did the racing suck? I seem to recall it didn't.

Great, you go watch formula Renault or GP2, for me, I want F1 to continue to be at the leading edge of motor racing.

I'm not going to do that.

Of course you're not, because you already know the result. :rolleyes:

I dared you to do it. You implied anyone could do it. They can't.

Don't put words in my mouth - I said "some" people could do it. A 12K reving turbo engine is not a leading edge challenge to build.

-Shrug- I don't disagree with that idea.

Nice we can agree on something :-)

But there's still no clear advantage to sticking with the current highly-restricted V8s over Energy-Recovery-Optimised Turbo I4s

I'm yet to be convinced of the need for change. So far you said we can save a few litres of fuel by wasting a gazzilion in other resources and cash. Having done that, in 2 years time, we will end up with a technically unspectacular engine that is (without the KERS) less powerful than a GP2 car of today.
#245660
Those I4;s need to have twin turbo IMO. :D and the xhaust should have to be forced to be shaped a certain way to make the engine revs bellow. >_> I'll take fake noise over nothing if I have to choose. :rofl:


Agreed on the twin turbos, plus why limit the pots to 4 and they need to unleash the revs, 12K - phewey

The sound thing isn't that big a deal with me, I prefer the deeper gargling sounds myself.
#245661
in 2 years time, we will end up with a technically unspectacular engine that is (without the KERS) less powerful than a GP2 car of today.


They've already got a solution to that argument... wait till you see what they do to GP2 cars in 2012. Solar Power! :thumbup:
#245663
Ecclestone probably wont live to 2013 to put up a fight.

:director::pray:



Oi Oi, if he keeps our engines the way they are! and doesn't make it Formula bloody asia one then I am okay with it, not that I have anything against Asia but we need more British races! Keep the classics, :censored: these amazing new techno ones? I would prefer France over it any day!

It's not about the money! It's about the people 8-)


Well excuse 'bloody' Asia, but it is this continent which is putting up the funds to make the tracks look respectable and keep up with F1's reputation of 'cutting edge'. The tracks in Silverstone, Imola, Brazil etc, look like they could even host local go kart races due to the infrastructure there even if the track layout makes for great racing.

In regards to track layout, that's not bloody Asia's fault either, it's bloody Tilke...who by the way isn't bloody Asian.
#245665
In regards to track layout, that's not bloody Asia's fault either, it's bloody Tilke...who by the way isn't bloody Asian.


Hey now... Don't throw the Germans into this!!!!

I sorta agree with Spanky. Stop with the BS rules that are decided because "ummm, we need to make a rule". Giving them guidelines like "you have this much fuel to spend in a weekend, go to it" would be great to see what they come up with. I liked it when F1 was high tech go crazy and spend a fortune to come up with the fastest race car you can. Then the cool high tech stuff worked it's way into normal cars in 5 or 6 years.
#245677
I don't really see the need for engine regulations along these lines, to be honest. Someone on here suggested a while ago that the FIA simply set a fuel limit for the race and let the engine manufacturers design their engines however they wish. I think that would provide a greater challenge, personally; you can find loopholes in the technical regulations, but a fuel quantity is pretty much set.

Then again, the FIA have a way of leaving even the simplest of regulations open to interpretation, so...

A fuel limit would be perfect.

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