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#24494
Cast your minds back to the USGP of 2005.

Hard to forget the scene.....over two thirds of the field peeling off the track on the warm up laps leaving 6 cars to race in an insult to the fans that turned up to watch. All Bridgestone shod, the anything for a win philosophy in plain view for all to see.

The problem was that Michelin had brought the wrong tires, they underestimated the level of wear, causing several tire failures including Ralf Schumacher’s Toyota - it hit the wall coming out of turn 13. A crash that could have cost him his life, and one that could have been avoided by Bridgestone…..

The excess wear on the tires was caused by the newly laid surface at Indianapolis, this surface had been laid and ready for the Indy 500 race a couple of month before. The tarmac had been diamond cut for better grip. No teams had any testing on the track prior to the race, the F1 had to be set up for the F1 race. This involes much re-arrangement of the semi-permanent grandstands running down the pit land and up past turn one on the F1 track.

So basically Michelin had NO clue as to the abrasive qualities of the new diamond cut track and brought the completely wrong tire. At the same time Bridgestone brought perfect tires for the race. Bridgestone were lucky and Michelin unlucky…..or perhaps not!

The thing is that - although no F1 team had ANY testing time on the Indy F1 track prior to the race, Bridgestone did have a whole month of data to work from. The Indy 500 race is run for an entire month with a huge amount of practice, testing and qualifying and a HUGE amount of data gathered from the cars. And the cars were running…..wait for it….FIRESTONE tires. Every single INDY car runs the tires supplied by Bridgestone’s sister company and thus has access to hours and hours of testing data.

That testing data showed the highly abrasive and dangerous nature of the INDY track. Bridgestone kept that information to themselves and turned up the 2005 USGP with very hard compound tires that were able to cope with the dangerous surface. But in order to secure their only win that year, Bridgestone kept the dangerous nature of the track hidden from Michelin. It is apparent that Bridgestone put a win as a higher priority than driver safety.

Corporate scum mentality at it’s worst.

Of course some will say that they were not at liberty to divulge the hazardous nature of the INDY track, but I would say they were morally obliged to do so.
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By texasmr2
#24496
Why is Bridgestone the bad guy they did their homework and Michelin didn't?
Last edited by texasmr2 on 15 Nov 07, 18:57, edited 1 time in total.
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By f1ea
#24498
you're saying tyre suppliers should have shared their research and information with the other tyre supplier?? if a certain engine never blows up they should give their secrets to other teams so that theirs doesn't blow. After all, a blown engine can cause a serius accident.

Michelin had a safe option in Indy: go for 5 pit stops. They would have lost the race, but the drivers would have been safe.
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By Martin
#24499
I am surprised that Michelin were so cought out, Mich should have done better but B/stone did have an advantage. If the track surface was exceptional then the circuit owners should have advised the teams. But surely the teams look at the track beforehand dont they?
Back to Moseley again, the worst part of that race was the refusal of FIA to allow the track to be changed to make it safer. I wonder why the FIA did that? Oh, I remember - Ferrari were on Bridgestone - well well - what a surprise!

This was 2 years ago RD why raise it now?
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By texasmr2
#24500
I find the main fault to be on the FIA's shoulder's, they should have allowed the chicane to be built.

"In a letter to FIA Race Director Charlie Whiting, dated Saturday, June 18, Michelin representatives Pierre Dupasquier and Nick Shorrock revealed that they did not know the cause of the Toyota tyre failures, and unless the cars could be slowed down in Turn 13, the Michelin tyres used in qualification could not be used during the race. Whiting replied on Sunday, June 19, expressing his surprise that Michelin had not brought suitable tyres, suggesting that the teams should limit their drivers to the maximum safe speed specified by Michelin in Turn 13. He also addressed several solutions which had been proposed by the teams, insisting that use of the new specification tyres flown in overnight would be " a breach of the rules to be considered by the stewards", and the placement of a chicane in the turn was "out of the question" — the race would not be sanctioned by the FIA (making it a non-championship race) if the track layout was changed. He deemed the Michelin teams' proposals to be "grossly unfair" to the Bridgestone teams."

Here is a link to the whole story:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Unite ... Grand_Prix
By certom
#24504
i think it's strange that you come out with this matter after 2 years and a half..and meanwhile no one has written it anywhere (or better..i haven't seen it, if you can enlighten me..)
comparing F1 to Indy it's like comparing..i don't know...the WRC with the Dakar! i mean, they're so different, you can't do any comparison!!
By Ron Dennis
#24507
Why is Bridgestone the bad guy they did their homework and Michelin didn't?


bridgestone had all the INDY 500 data - Michelin did not, and in that data showed a dangerous level of tyre wear - which they kept mum about
By Ron Dennis
#24508
you're saying tyre suppliers should have shared their research and information with the other tyre supplier?? if a certain engine never blows up they should give their secrets to other teams so that theirs doesn't blow. After all, a blown engine can cause a serius accident.

Michelin had a safe option in Indy: go for 5 pit stops. They would have lost the race, but the drivers would have been safe.


they had a safer option - they didnt race

but that was too late to save Ralf his smash into the wall out of turn 13
By Ron Dennis
#24510
I am surprised that Michelin were so cought out, Mich should have done better but B/stone did have an advantage. If the track surface was exceptional then the circuit owners should have advised the teams. But surely the teams look at the track beforehand dont they?
Back to Moseley again, the worst part of that race was the refusal of FIA to allow the track to be changed to make it safer. I wonder why the FIA did that? Oh, I remember - Ferrari were on Bridgestone - well well - what a surprise!

This was 2 years ago RD why raise it now?


I would call one tyre manufacturer having umpteen thousands of laps worth of data to the others ZERO laps of data an advantage yes

the teams first had a look at the track on Friday 1st practice

it is not the teams at fault here - it was a certain Japanese tire manufacturer
By Ron Dennis
#24512
i think it's strange that you come out with this matter after 2 years and a half..and meanwhile no one has written it anywhere (or better..i haven't seen it, if you can enlighten me..)
comparing F1 to Indy it's like comparing..i don't know...the WRC with the Dakar! i mean, they're so different, you can't do any comparison!!


why cant you?

it was the same track

I have brought this fact up in several forums, thought I would share it with you sorry but I was not here two and half years ago - and also I did not know there was a time limit to what we can talk about here
By certom
#24515
oh, we are against each power, Stephen is a flower-power hippy, and we smoke weed all together, so don't worry about it! ;)

anyway: the indy tyres are slick tyres, they're designed to support much more G-force than a F1 tyre, and the track has just one turn in common with the real Indy (well, maybe the most exciting and also the most important turn, but still just one!)
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By McLaren Fan
#24520
oh, we are against each power, Stephen is a flower-power hippy, and we smoke weed all together, so don't worry about it! ;)

anyway: the indy tyres are slick tyres, they're designed to support much more G-force than a F1 tyre, and the track has just one turn in common with the real Indy (well, maybe the most exciting and also the most important turn, but still just one!)

In that case there would have been increased tyre ware on the Formula One cars so Bridgestone would have probably have known. I blame the FIA for the whole thing. At the end of the day the Bridgestone teams would never have lost out because you could simply have said the Michelin runners would receive no points. A chicane could have been made, the new tyres flown in etc. Bridgestone would get their win and points, the fans would have seen a race and the sport would not have received more negative criticism.
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By bud
#24542
oh, we are against each power, Stephen is a flower-power hippy, and we smoke weed all together, so don't worry about it! ;)

anyway: the indy tyres are slick tyres, they're designed to support much more G-force than a F1 tyre, and the track has just one turn in common with the real Indy (well, maybe the most exciting and also the most important turn, but still just one!)


He isnt comparing the tyres between the two series here, Ron is saying that Bridgestone had information on the Indy track after it was resurfaced.
User avatar
By Selcouth_Feline
#24544
Maybe they didn't realise it would affect Michelin's tyres so badly - it's easy to look back on the race with hindsight. They may not have realised that Michelin's tyres would fare quite that badly - after all, they didn't have Michelin's tyre data - and why would you give away sensitive information to a rival who may then make even better tyres thanks to your data?

With hindsight, perhaps it was a bad decision - but did they deliberately decide to jeopardise driver's lives? I'm not so sure they did.
User avatar
By deMuRe
#24551
The Michelin teams had a performance limitation, all they had to do was take their foot off the gas a little and they would be fine.

Change the circuit at the last minute because Michelin came unprepared? Completely out of the question.

Why bring this up now completely out of the blue?

Oh I know, I'll start a Prost vs Senna thread...

:roll:

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