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[spankyham]

Trying to win is manipulating the outcome, is that race fixing also?

A soccer player passing the ball to his team-mate in a better position to score - he's trying to manipulate the outcome, is that game fixing?

A coach or manager praising players for passing and assisting other team mates to score - is that also match fixing?

I dont see the comparison there. A team sport where their goal is for the team to win the game is different to motorsports even if there are teams with two cars, their drivers once out on track are in affect racing each other thus are competitors.
So for one driver to pull over for another, same coloured car or not.. is giving up his purpose for being on the track and the purpose of sport in general by saying to a competitor you can have this, i give up.

I really think it's a generational thing, as I post above. In times gone by it just wasn't an issue. Now, especially the younger fans, more and more follow a driver rather than a team. I mean, I suspect jensonb would follow Jenson where ever he drove. Whereas for me, it is definitely beyond doubt that I follow my team. In fact it is written into Ferrari contracts for all drivers that the team comes first, and everyone of their drivers must sign and accept that.

[darwin dali]

Team Orders are race fixing. Simple as.

Nuhuh - not according to the FIA.

The FIA can bite me, race fixing is where you manipulate the outcome. That's exactly what team orders are, by definition.

Hm, awfully big words. How about the manipulation of the diffuser through which your hero got the world title, eh?

That's great, let's equate cynically manipulating race results to using aerodynamics in racing cars. Cos those are completely the same thing. Yep. Using aerodynamics in a racing car?! MORALLY REPREHENSIBLE.

You simply must be joking. Nobody could be that stupid.

Ah, nice euphemism: using aerodynamics in racing cars. I maintain it was a manipulation of the technical regs - I'm not saying they shouldn't have done it. But it was a manipulation of the race outcome nonetheless.
And I'm not saying they shouldn't use team orders either

And BTW: you are rather quick at plastering this place with your own judgments such as cynical, morally reprehensible and stupid. You will learn in life that this kind of behavior is generally not much appreciated. Let it not be me who has to teach you this.

If you make a stupid analogy, I'm going to tell you it's stupid. It's not really my problem if that upsets you. You could easily exercise the option not to say stupid things.

Team Orders are inherently cynical. It's not a judgment.

You keep making these judgments (see your last response) that might be right in YOUR mind, but are by no means generally accepted as such. Cynical implies having a sneering disbelief in sincerity or integrity, e.g., cynical about politicians' motives. There has never been a problem with team orders - everybody knew what they were and was open about them until that unfortunate rule change, which now thankfully is reversed. Thus, to state that team orders are inherently cynical is testament of a lack of knowledge of Formula One history. To claim that such a statement is not a judgment is simply brazen, bordering on arrogance - again a trait not generally well-regarded.
Keep it up buddy

[Jensonb]

Team Orders are race fixing. Simple as.

Nuhuh - not according to the FIA.

The FIA can bite me, race fixing is where you manipulate the outcome. That's exactly what team orders are, by definition.

Trying to win is manipulating the outcome, is that race fixing also?

Congratulations, you actually found a stupider analogy. Trying to win a race is not manipulating it, it's competing in it. If you can't comprehend the difference between manipulation and affecting, there's nothing I can do to help you.

If you make a stupid analogy, I'm going to tell you it's stupid. It's not really my problem if that upsets you. You could easily exercise the option not to say stupid things.

So could you .

As could you, but it's never stopped you before, now has it?

You keep making these judgments (see your last response) that might be right in YOUR mind, but are by no means generally accepted as such. Cynical implies having a sneering disbelief in sincerity or integrity, e.g., cynical about politicians' motives. There has never been a problem with team orders - everybody knew what they were and was open about them until that unfortunate rule change, which now thankfully is reversed. Thus, to state that team orders are inherently cynical is testament of a lack of knowledge of Formula One history. To claim that such a statement is not a judgment is simply brazen, bordering on arrogance - again a trait not generally well-regarded.
Keep it up buddy

Cynicism is cynicism, regardless of whether people are actually so blase as to put up with it or not. The fact it's been done before does not prevent it from being cynical. The fact I don't care that it's been done before enough to excuse it being done now is not testament to any lack of knowledge - knowing and caring are different things. For someone giving a lecture on arrogance, you're putting on a pretty spectacular show of it yourself.

And don't call me "buddy".

[Hammer278]

Jenson, please consider both drivers usually share information in a team in regards to setup/strategy/etc. This is TEAM PLAY. T-E-A-M.

You can't suddenly become outright rivals on track, when teammates race each other the game changes. Less risks are taken, and there is much more to lose for both. Why do you think this is? Because it is a TEAM sport first of all, ethical or not, team order is not, and CANNOT be considered race fixing.

Next time the real Jenson takes a peak at Lewis' setup monitor and a mechanic doesn't stop him, please come on here and scream 'the race is fixed!!!!' You know how stupid this sounds.

[texasmr2]

And don't call me "buddy".

I don't think you want us too call you what your acting like........ !!

[darwin dali]

After a previous warning by a mod, tonight's the night buddy JB - you won yourself a fishing trip

[What's Burning?]

[youtube]DUfts9dfZ9I[/youtube]

[F1er]

There are only two sports in the world.............Motor Racing and Boxing everything else is a "game"

So just like they do in boxing............let them fight mano-a-mano!!!!! I dont care what you think about team orders they are bullsh**

[Hammer278]

Easy for us to get gutsy and yell mano-mano when we don't have millions of dollars and sponsors at stake.

[F1er]

Team Orders are race fixing. Simple as.

Nuhuh - not according to the FIA.

The FIA can bite me, race fixing is where you manipulate the outcome. That's exactly what team orders are, by definition.

Trying to win is manipulating the outcome, is that race fixing also?

A soccer player passing the ball to his team-mate in a better position to score - he's trying to manipulate the outcome, is that game fixing?

A coach or manager praising players for passing and assisting other team mates to score - is that also match fixing?

So when Lewis won the WDC.................WHAT DID HEIKI GET??????????? teammates my a@@! You do know there are 2 sides of the garage ??????
Just like in MotoGP where teammates race e/o all the time

As for your soccer analogy Everyone lifts the trophy and get a medal!!!!!!!!
Have any of you seen WEB celebrating Sebs WDC???Just for the sake of being teammates

[texasmr2]

HINT HINT HINT .

ESPNF1:
Jenson Button has said despite the relaxing of rules on team orders, he believes teams will think twice before forcing a driver to play second fiddle.

"I don't think it will happen, I really don't," he told Reuters at the McLaren press launch in Berlin. "I think they will realise that two drivers are better than one. For setting a car up you need two experienced drivers.

"If you are putting all your eggs in one basket, the other driver's not going to feel like giving you feedback, is he? He's not going to feel like pushing the car to the limit. He's not going to qualify well and he's not going to race well.

"If I had a team I would have both drivers having a fair shot at it because they are going to push each other hard.

"I hope that drivers are allowed to race fairly. You do all this hard work of getting to Formula One and fighting your way through the lower ranks and you arrive and you should be given fair treatment."

He added the affect on the driver forced to concede could be negative. In 2010 Felipe Massa was made to concede a race to Fernando Alonso and his form over the remainder of the season fell away markedly.

"You could say [team orders] are great because all the points go to one driver but the morale within the team must be terrible because one driver always knows he is on the back foot. It can't be positive for a team to be in that environment, to have one driver know that he's got to give a place up."

Button went on to say that even if he or Hamilton was closing in on the world title with the other out of contention, he hoped McLaren would not favour either of them.

"I am happy with the position that we have in the McLaren team with no team orders, it's the way it should be when you are both world champions. You both want to fight for a world championship again, you don't want to give each other an inch on the circuit."


JB is talking an awful lot about this topic - remember his statements last year?
Anyway, sure, him and LH are both world champions and so it's relatively easy to justify a no-team order policy. So was RB last year with SV nor MW being a world champion - hm, I wonder how this will play this year?
But in Ferrari's case, there was a slight difference of 2 titles vs. none (and FM having lost his chance in the last corner of the last race, sorry FM). So, it made sense for Ferrari to go with the proven winner who was leading in the points already. This won't change this year unless FM for some odd reason enjoys a runaway season...

[F1er]

It's always the Ferrari fans trying to brainwash everyone on how team orders have always been there,it's nothing new! BUT yet they WERE' ILLEGAL as per FIA rules,UNTIL Ferrari found the need to have them legalized,with Jean Todt?? head of FIA bending over to please his former Employer

He could have said NOOOOOO ,you know!!!!!!! Now if a driver wants to VOLUNTARELY help his other half..........of the garage,than it's HIS CHOICE!!

[texasmr2]

It's always the Ferrari fans trying to brainwash everyone on how team orders have always been there,it's nothing new! BUT yet they WERE' ILLEGAL as per FIA rules,UNTIL Ferrari found the need to have them legalized,with Jean Todt?? head of FIA bending over to please his former Employer

He could have said NOOOOOO ,you know!!!!!!! Now if a driver wants to VOLUNTARELY help his other half..........of the garage,than it's HIS CHOICE!!

You have truelly gone fishing mate or should I say buddy?

[F1er]

It's always the Ferrari fans trying to brainwash everyone on how team orders have always been there,it's nothing new! BUT yet they WERE' ILLEGAL as per FIA rules,UNTIL Ferrari found the need to have them legalized,with Jean Todt?? head of FIA bending over to please his former Employer

He could have said NOOOOOO ,you know!!!!!!! Now if a driver wants to VOLUNTARELY help his other half..........of the garage,than it's HIS CHOICE!!

You have truelly gone fishing mate or should I say buddy?

Why is that Tex? Do you agree/dissagree? Am I lying telling the truth??

Whats buggin you buddy

[texasmr2]

What I was alluding too mate was that it would be nice to get back on topic nothing more and no jab at you. It was always one of my peaves when I was a mod and it still is so what I mean is it would be nice if we could stay OT. I just make what I hope are friendly suggestions and opinions thats all no malintent meant .