FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[Hexagram]

you look shocked to say the least!

[stonemonkey]

Looks like it's passing close to the radiators but I assume they've dealt with that and the tuning issues of the longer pipe.

Will it melt the tarmac on the grid and pitbox when it's stationary?

[Jensonb]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say this is not going to cause any kind of revolution. It'll probably work, but I doubt it's advantages will be so great that we'll be talking about it come November.

[darwin dali]

It's only 10 degrees and they've barely managed over ten laps in more than half a day. Imagine when they get this monster hot bulky exhaust to Bahrain

Its only the first day, and they are testing something radical. I'm sure they are going to schedule.

Im not really concerned with times from these first few tests. Like Stefano said, the last few tests will be more telling.

True enough mate, it may well prove to be a great idea.

Here's an idea from outside the cube:

[youtube]01hUyIrubWE[/youtube]

[bigpat]

Good on Renault for a trying a novel concept, power to them....

However I can't see the system working as elegantly as it may be pictured. Also, it would be interesting to see how sensitive the car it to throttle position.

I can't see enough flow being diverted rearwards on entry to a typical 3rd gear corner at 100-130 kph(typically on a trailing throttle, with low exhaust velocity). From what I observed at last year's Grand Prix (Melbourne) the Red Bulls got to the apex MUCH quicker, with so much front grip that they nailed the throttle a good 3-5 mtrs earlier. It was quite obvious to the naked eye. It seems all the time in these cars is made on the way into the corner, not where this concept would really benefit I would think.....

I can see a gain when you're flat on the gas through faster corners, like at Barca, Turkey, Spa, or Suzuka maybe.....

At the end of the day, these are switched on people, and the tunnel and sim numbers must indicate a gain, or else they wouldn't run with it.

[spankyham]

Good on Renault for a trying a novel concept, power to them....

However I can't see the system working as elegantly as it may be pictured. Also, it would be interesting to see how sensitive the car it to throttle position.

I can't see enough flow being diverted rearwards on entry to a typical 3rd gear corner at 100-130 kph(typically on a trailing throttle, with low exhaust velocity). From what I observed at last year's Grand Prix (Melbourne) the Red Bulls got to the apex MUCH quicker, with so much front grip that they nailed the throttle a good 3-5 mtrs earlier. It was quite obvious to the naked eye. It seems all the time in these cars is made on the way into the corner, not where this concept would really benefit I would think.....

I can see a gain when you're flat on the gas through faster corners, like at Barca, Turkey, Spa, or Suzuka maybe.....

At the end of the day, these are switched on people, and the tunnel and sim numbers must indicate a gain, or else they wouldn't run with it.

This was discussed on a few tech sites last year (you should be able to google it pretty easily). And it exactly relates to what you described you saw in Melb. It was speculated that RB had found a way to keep the exhaust gases running via an overrun mapping, but without damaging the engine/valves (well not too much) and it was available to the driver to engage via another engine map setting.

They speculated that's how RB were able to pull such stunning qualifying laps when needed. Remember they were first with the low blown exhaust and feeding the diffuser. So, you might surmise that Renault plan to do something similar here to get the benefit on those lower gear corners. However, as difficult as it would have been (and potentially dangerous to the engine) to work that mapping with the conventional F1 exhaust, imagine how hard it will be on an exhaust as long as the Renault must now have.

As an aside Renault said their problems yesterday were leaking hydraulics (brake I think). Two points, firstly, I bet they were cursing the pull rod if it was rear and secondly, I'd like to know if the leak was something melted by the 6-800C temps from the FEE.

[Robert12010]

Good on Renault for a trying a novel concept, power to them....

However I can't see the system working as elegantly as it may be pictured. Also, it would be interesting to see how sensitive the car it to throttle position.

I can't see enough flow being diverted rearwards on entry to a typical 3rd gear corner at 100-130 kph(typically on a trailing throttle, with low exhaust velocity). From what I observed at last year's Grand Prix (Melbourne) the Red Bulls got to the apex MUCH quicker, with so much front grip that they nailed the throttle a good 3-5 mtrs earlier. It was quite obvious to the naked eye. It seems all the time in these cars is made on the way into the corner, not where this concept would really benefit I would think.....

I can see a gain when you're flat on the gas through faster corners, like at Barca, Turkey, Spa, or Suzuka maybe.....

At the end of the day, these are switched on people, and the tunnel and sim numbers must indicate a gain, or else they wouldn't run with it.

This was discussed on a few tech sites last year (you should be able to google it pretty easily). And it exactly relates to what you described you saw in Melb. It was speculated that RB had found a way to keep the exhaust gases running via an overrun mapping, but without damaging the engine/valves (well not too much) and it was available to the driver to engage via another engine map setting.

They speculated that's how RB were able to pull such stunning qualifying laps when needed. Remember they were first with the low blown exhaust and feeding the diffuser. So, you might surmise that Renault plan to do something similar here to get the benefit on those lower gear corners. However, as difficult as it would have been (and potentially dangerous to the engine) to work that mapping with the conventional F1 exhaust, imagine how hard it will be on an exhaust as long as the Renault must now have.

As an aside Renault said their problems yesterday were leaking hydraulics (brake I think). Two points, firstly, I bet they were cursing the pull rod if it was rear and secondly, I'd like to know if the leak was something melted by the 6-800C temps from the FEE.

this radical idea is either going to be great or a disaster, so we will see

[bud]

With the innovative new Renault exhaust system the talk of the paddock in Valencia on Wednesday, it has emerged that McLaren's 2011 challenger also features a novel exhaust system.

The Lotus Renault R31 hit the circuit on Tuesday with Vitaly Petrov behind the wheel, the car's exhaust exiting at the bottom of the sidepod area. And, according to Auto Motor und Sport, the new McLaren has a similar design. "The MP4-26 apparently has the same trick," said the German report.

The new system is aimed at generating more downforce through the flow of air to the now mandatory single diffuser.

"I'm not going to talk too much about it, I will let our competitors find out by themselves," Renault boss Eric Boullier told ESPNF1. "Yes, we have decided to go a little bit brave in this design and this area to make the car a bit different.

"If you are too conservative you will stay at the back of the queue and we do not want to spend our time copying the others. If you want to be at the front you have to be creative and you also need to bring this creativeness in the team spirit."

And it seems likely that other teams may follow suit, including Mercedes. "Renault's thinking is in the right direction," said team boss Ross Brawn. "We are working on a similar solution."

The McLaren MP4-26 will launch in Berlin on Friday.

© ESPN EMEA Ltd.

[killem2]

Forgive me, but what am I looking at here?

[What's Burning?]

Forgive me, but what am I looking at here?

Take a look at the first page in the post, it's a radical new exhaust system deployed by Renault.

[killem2]

Forgive me, but what am I looking at here?

Take a look at the first page in the post, it's a radical new exhaust system deployed by Renault.

Oh figured it was, but I just can't make it out. it looks like a front wing but then again I'm horrible at spotting things like this

[bigpat]

Honestly, even with trick over run mapping, I can't see the benefit on corner entry. On corner entry, the throttle is closed, with declining revs, hence less mass flow, which is not a situation conducive to bulk exhaust flow. You can never change this.....

The Red Bulls of last year carried so much entry speed, due to FRONT AERO grip. Everyone else to a traditional approach, braking largely in a straight line, having to baby the front end around, and only nailing the throttle once they unwound steering lock. Of the rest, the Ferrari was good, the McLarens looked rather ordinary (this coming from a Macca fan...)

The Red Bulls in comparison, braked hard down to the apex (although to a higher apex speed), on a notably shallower line, abruptly rotated the car at the apex, unwound the lock, and just mashed the throttle, where the blown diffuser would've helped to keep the rear end in line. They were on it a car length earlier than anyone.

I knowthe description isn't the best, but it was MINDBLOWING. I've never EVER seen a car corner like it. Even the Brawn's of '09 weren't like that. They impressed with just how planted there were, not requiring any steering correction.

Common to both is that they could just nail the throttle early on corner exit.

I've always maintained the best cars are rather simple. They can have subtle tweaks and innovations, but they are fundamentally a solid car. A team pinning all their hopes on a single innovation rarely show out. The active Williams of '92 & '93, the mass damper Renault's of '05 & '06, were all great cars, even without their gadgets. The '96 Williams, the 2000 to '04 Ferraris, and especially the '09 Brawn were utterly conventional cars.

I feel Renault may spend too much time trying to sort this system out on a still new car, with KERS and the movable rear wing still to sort out. I think Ross Brawn has the right idea, in that Mercedes will want to understand what they already have, and let the R & D boys investigate this. Then they will maybe try to introduce a similar system when they KNOW what it will do to their cars' behaviour.

One thing though, the Renault's will look cool spitting out flames on corner entry!

[spankyham]

Honestly, even with trick over run mapping, I can't see the benefit on corner entry. On corner entry, the throttle is closed, with declining revs, hence less mass flow, which is not a situation conducive to bulk exhaust flow. You can never change this.....

The Red Bulls of last year carried so much entry speed, due to FRONT AERO grip.

No, it was done with mapping to keep the exhaust gas flow there. Scarbs explains it in this article rather well. If it was through front aero grip only they would have been overseering into the corner and that didn't happen.

Everyone else to a traditional approach, braking largely in a straight line, having to baby the front end around, and only nailing the throttle once they unwound steering lock. Of the rest, the Ferrari was good, the McLarens looked rather ordinary (this coming from a Macca fan...)

The Red Bulls in comparison, braked hard down to the apex (although to a higher apex speed), on a notably shallower line, abruptly rotated the car at the apex, unwound the lock, and just mashed the throttle, where the blown diffuser would've helped to keep the rear end in line. They were on it a car length earlier than anyone.

I knowthe description isn't the best, but it was MINDBLOWING. I've never EVER seen a car corner like it. Even the Brawn's of '09 weren't like that. They impressed with just how planted there were, not requiring any steering correction.

Common to both is that they could just nail the throttle early on corner exit.

I've always maintained the best cars are rather simple. They can have subtle tweaks and innovations, but they are fundamentally a solid car. A team pinning all their hopes on a single innovation rarely show out. The active Williams of '92 & '93, the mass damper Renault's of '05 & '06, were all great cars, even without their gadgets. The '96 Williams, the 2000 to '04 Ferraris, and especially the '09 Brawn were utterly conventional cars.

I feel Renault may spend too much time trying to sort this system out on a still new car, with KERS and the movable rear wing still to sort out. I think Ross Brawn has the right idea, in that Mercedes will want to understand what they already have, and let the R & D boys investigate this. Then they will maybe try to introduce a similar system when they KNOW what it will do to their cars' behaviour.

One thing though, the Renault's will look cool spitting out flames on corner entry!

I think the jury is still out on the Renault FEE as to how good it is. The RB7 has something else going, will do another post on it. I think what the RB7 has is more likely what Ferrari and Macca have - but don't want to show yet.

[bigpat]

I don't think I explained myself properly. The Red Bulls had MORE front grip than any other car. They appeared balanced. I understand if they had no rear end grip, they would oversteer.....

I don't underestimate the ability to run the over run mapping etc, but I think this was 'icing on the cake' to an already sweet car. I don't think this was the silver bullet of the RB 6. The extra fuel consumption (with no re-fueling theses days)this would require would have precluded them getting the absolute best out of it, in my opinion.....

It always amuses me that little things in F1 get blown out of proportion. But this is'nt unique to F!, it happens in all forms of motor racing

And yes, Renault would have definitely known what Red Bull were doing. The commercial arrangement between them would obviously not allow anyone but Renault technicians to open, or modify the engines. After all, RB are only a customer, and Renault want to keep their intellectual property to themselves. Re-mapping an engine is a big job, with knock on effects on durability. Renault would be the only ones doing this, at Red Bull's request. Renault would keep the technical info from the factory and customer teams apart, in separate 'teams', with respect to fairness.

It is well known that within a team itself, that drivers have slight differences in mapping to suit their driving styles. Engines are dispatched to a race for specific driver. his has been a long time practice.

Red Bull would not have the facilities like transient dyno's (or an engine division for a start) to do that sort of work, anyway.....

[spankyham]

There's been a lot of talk about the Renault FEE. Also Ferrari and McLaren have clearly indicated they have stuff they have not shown yet, well, McLaren because they haven't even launched their car, but Ferrari said at their launch they will have a major upgrade before Bahrain. They also said the car would look different to the one they launched.

I've been part of a few discussions on this, and some people a lot smarter than me also noticed that the RB7 was different on day 2 at Valencia - new rear. If you look at other pictures you can see the Siemens and Platform Computing logos have moved.

If you look at the picture below, you will see on day two there is clearly a new lump, in the shape of a channel from where the exhaust was on day one. The channel clearly leads back to the diffuser. I think the RB7 is channeling exhaust gas to the diffuser. This was supposed to be banned, but obviously they have found a loophole. And perhaps this is what Ferrari and Macca's found also.

Lastly, if you compare this solution to the Renault FEE, well, other teams will copy this for sure because it has benefit without all the negatives and extra bodywork, weight and heat shielding necessary. It should be pretty easy to copy, probably the hardest part will be the engine mapping, but for teams that perfected the RBD last year it shouldn't be a problem.