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[onelapdown]

Yeah but McLaren International is a business, not a democracy...

Which just posted a colossal loss of $100m, that's about 20% of their annual revenue (not of their profit). The head of this business enterprise is ultimately responsible.

They didn't lose $100m, the FIA fined them that much.

I don't think McLaren International is a Plc, so its accounts are not a matter of public record.

[darwin dali]

It's a loss in their books, caused by their actions or inactions for which RD ultimately has to take responsibility. There is a public record by RD himself about how much their annual revenue is.

[onelapdown]

Well I might be wrong about the business status of McLaren, I was under the impression that it was owned by Ron Dennis, Mansour Ojjeh and Daimler. It may be that the Daimler end of it means their results have to be published, but in any case I think a loss of $100m is far too neat a number to be accurate.

As for Ron Dennis being responsible for his emplyees' actions, that's only true up to a point. He's the most successful team manager in F1 history, both in terms of race results and profitability, so that has to be weighed in the balance. (and before anyone clains Enzo Ferrari is more successful, Ferrari won 93 championship races during his lifetime, while McLaren have won 132 races since Dennis took over in 1980)

[darwin dali]

I'm pretty confident that there are not too many that deny RD was a pretty successful team manager - we could argue about your superlative of most successful. At any rate, the past is the past and now is now. Fact is RD's management style earned McLaren a setback of a whopping 100 million bucks. Not only that, he's ultimately also responsible for losing both championships this year all the while McLaren was in a prime position to win both. Plus they're hamstrung next season as well with their extra scrutineering and bad pit position.
This would look pretty bad in most businesses' books. RD seems to have lost his plot. Old drivers who can't beat their team mates anymore retire, so should he.

[onelapdown]

On that basis Di Montezemelo should resign - his management style could be argued to have resulted in Stepney leaking Ferrari information...

It's a poor argument. Dennis is in control of over 1,300 staff across a large group of companies, and he can't be held responsible for all the actions of every sngle one of them. If he had created a culture of cheating that would be one thing, but that simply isn't the case.

[darwin dali]

RD (1980-2007) 9 WDC (33%), 7 WCC (26%).
JT (1993-2007) 6 WDC (43%), 7 WCC (50%). Plus numerous World Rally and World Sportscar Championships as team manager of Peugeot before his move to Ferrari.

[darwin dali]

On that basis Di Montezemelo should resign - his management style could be argued to have resulted in Stepney leaking Ferrari information...

Uh, no! He should get promoted! Under his watch Ferrari just won both titles and is not in the hole with $100m like McLaren is. At any rate, he wouldn't be the person to compare RD with, it's Ferrari CEO and team boss JT. Montezemelo would be the equivalent of Mercedes' Zetsche.

[onelapdown]

RD (1980-2007) 9 WDC (33%), 7 WCC (26%).
JT (1993-2007) 6 WDC (43%), 7 WCC (50%). Plus numerous World Rally and World Sportscar Championships as team manager of Peugeot before his move to Ferrari.

I take that point, but the difference is that Todt did that on the back of Ferrari, whereas the whole of McLaren's success since 1981 is ultimately down to Dennis.

As for your point about Dennis being responsible for McLaren "losing" both titles this year, I think in terms of the drivers' title that's mainly down to Alonso's shocking underperformance, while Kimi would probably prefer to believe that he won it.

Anyway, many people said Alex Ferguson should retire a couple of years ago, but look at him now. If the powers that be believe Dennis is getting in the way they would force him out, but I don't see any sign of that happening any time soon.

[onelapdown]

On that basis Di Montezemelo should resign - his management style could be argued to have resulted in Stepney leaking Ferrari information...

Uh, no! He should get promoted! Under his watch Ferrari just won both titles and is not in the hole with $100m like McLaren is. At any rate, he wouldn't be the person to compare RD with, it's Ferrari CEO and team boss JT. Montezemelo would be the equivalent of Mercedes' Zetsche.

If he's already at the head of the organisation, how can you promote him?!

[darwin dali]

I take that point, but the difference is that Todt did that on the back of Ferrari, whereas the whole of McLaren's success since 1981 is ultimately down to Dennis.

I would then throw in the fact that when JT moved to Ferrari he found a formerly great team in shambles and had to rebuild from scratch - in record time I might add, the first race wins came surprisingly soon. So it was a new beginning by JT.

[darwin dali]

On that basis Di Montezemelo should resign - his management style could be argued to have resulted in Stepney leaking Ferrari information...

Uh, no! He should get promoted! Under his watch Ferrari just won both titles and is not in the hole with $100m like McLaren is. At any rate, he wouldn't be the person to compare RD with, it's Ferrari CEO and team boss JT. Montezemelo would be the equivalent of Mercedes' Zetsche.

If he's already at the head of the organisation, how can you promote him?!

Chair of the board for life or somtin'

[bud]

At any rate, he wouldn't be the person to compare RD with, it's Ferrari CEO and team boss JT. Montezemelo would be the equivalent of Mercedes' Zetsche.

Jean Todt doesnt Own 15% of the F1 team!

[darwin dali]

It's the closest at least from the job descriptions and titles. RD is definitely no Montezemelo or Zetsche.

[bud]

Ron has alot more say over the F1 team than Zetsche

[darwin dali]

Well, apparently it was the Mercedes board that fired FA...

And JT apparently has enough power to prevent Montezemelo from hiring FA. He's quite the feisty anyway: remember his fights with Ballestre?