FORUMula1.com

[Dantif3r]

Question in subject. I'm am trying to do some research and find out when F1 started becoming a "oh I was waiting for the pitstops to pass him" fest.

[scotty]

Simple fact is that the modern 'lack of overtaking' is a myth... but if you're talking about when dirty air started to play a part in following distances, then it's roots would be in the early-mid 90's when aero started to become more important. I think it really started to become an issue when they subsequently started using the grooved tyres in 1998.

[texasmr2]

Simple fact is that the modern 'lack of overtaking' is a myth... but if you're talking about when dirty air started to play a part in following distances, then it's roots would be in the early-mid 90's when aero started to become more important. I think it really started to become an issue when they subsequently started using the grooved tyres in 1998.

Too all.

[madbrad]

It began in 1992 when no one could pass Nigel Mansell. They couldn't pass him because they couldn't catch up to him!

[bud]

using the grooved tyres in 1998.

I think this was the main reason, teams started spending more money on aero to help with downforce and compensate for the lack of grip.

[Jose Lorca]

1998

- Grooved tyres
- wider cars (the dimensions all changed)
- Aerodynamics were greater

Thank god F1 is reversing these changes and just look at the results.

1998 was also the start of the era of 'One Team takes all' started with the dominance of Mclaren who were untouchable and led to many boring races. Team orders were also brought into obvious play to gain any advantage (DC & Mika) which angered a lot of fans.

[bud]

1998

- wider cars (the dimensions all changed)

Actually they were narrower that season....

Team orders were also brought into obvious play to gain any advantage (DC & Mika) which angered a lot of fans.

Actually they first came into play in the first season of the sport.

[FRAFPDD]

Simple fact is that the modern 'lack of overtaking' is a myth... but if you're talking about when dirty air started to play a part in following distances, then it's roots would be in the early-mid 90's when aero started to become more important. I think it really started to become an issue when they subsequently started using the grooved tyres in 1998.

Too all.

Same, ESPECIALLY opening statement, cant blame fans though when everyone else around you is saying it.

[myownalias]

Is it really a myth? the evidence seems to suggest otherwise; compare the number of overtakes in 2009 to the amount of overtakes in 1999; I don't have the figures to hand but from watching the sport in '99 and '09 I see a visibly lesser amount of overtaking; is this because of aero development not allowing cars to follow; or is it that drivers have less ability than a driver from the previous generation of F1 drivers; is it poor track design that doesn't allow for more overtaking?

[texasmr2]

I think it's three fold, the aero, the tracks and the grooved tires. JMO

[zurich_allan]

Whilst the process definitely began due to the grooved tyres and then turning to aero development as the highest priority, it didn't really develop far enough to become a major problem until about 2001/2002 in my opinion. This can be evidenced pretty well when you see the famous Mika / Schumi overtake from Spa in 2000. Mika could follow the ferrari closely pretty easily for several laps and didn't seem to suffer any ill effects in terms of handling whilst following. Plenty of videos on youtube demonstrate this. For me, the problem began in theory in 1998 but didn't actually make a difference for a few years after.

[scotty]

Is it really a myth? the evidence seems to suggest otherwise; compare the number of overtakes in 2009 to the amount of overtakes in 1999; I don't have the figures to hand but from watching the sport in '99 and '09 I see a visibly lesser amount of overtaking; is this because of aero development not allowing cars to follow; or is it that drivers have less ability than a driver from the previous generation of F1 drivers; is it poor track design that doesn't allow for more overtaking?

The figures are surprisingly similar:

otstats83-10.jpg

They fit my theory of it being largely caused by the 'boom' in aero performance in the 90's, but admittedly do not paint the whole picture, because there are many circumstancial exceptions that can skew the numbers - for example a driver qualifying way down the grid and making his way through, or bad weather and it's unpredictability.

I don't think track layout is the real problem, although obviously it does impact - Monaco would be the case in point, despite being an 'extreme' track.

There's no real way to say if it's driver ability or not, but i seriously doubt it.

For me the real key is the fact that the grids are a lot closer (generally speaking, anyway) in modern F1. If you're only a couple of tenths faster it's just not enough of an advantage - back in the day there was a massive field spread, where the fastest car could be nearly two seconds faster than it's closest rival let alone everyone else. That generally made it easier to pass if the situation allowed for it, but on the other hand it could just as easily cause massive gaps between cars on track, with no potential for overtaking. Look at this season with the new teams being a few seconds a lap slow... Alonso was able to pass on track at Monaco, right?!

[zurich_allan]

There's another major reason in my opinion that's a huge factor in why although there may be roughly the same amount of overtaking, it's not the same type of overtaking... difficult to describe what I mean by that, but really it comes down to predictability and unpredictability... The reason is (and I think if it were banned it would potentially throw races open to unexpected results!) software packages that work out strategies for pit stops. These packages can easily tell what the best strategy is in a number of different scenarios, and instantly if something happens during the race can tell you to change your own strategy in reaction to that of another team etc. This as much as anything else can lead to boring processional races.

I think that these packages should be banned altogether, or controlled so that a team may use them prior to the race, but then switch the software off, and HAVE to make judgement calls if things get mixed up. Remember 1994/1995? The amount of times Schumacher and Benetton caught everyone by surprise with either a one stopper or a three stopper, or by stopping ultra early or late? It made it exciting. If each team had to make unaided calls on strategy it allows for strong cars to drop to midfield and have to make their way through, or slower teams finding themselves briefly at the front before the chase begins... etc. etc. Sometimes the teams would get it right, sometimes they'd get it wrong.

I honestly believe that it's since these types of technology have come in that we've seen some of the HUMANS who are master tacticians (Such as Patrick Head and Williams), and likely better if non-reliant on technology, drop further back - because any moron can press a button on a computer...

[myownalias]

Guess it must be our perception that is skewed then; as there seemed to be many more overtakes in the 90s when I seriously started to get into F1, or maybe it's because many of the overtakes happen off camera at the back of the field, Sauber, Toro Rosso and the new teams, there certainly didn't seem like a lot of frontrunners overtaking!

[madbrad]

People who don't follow F1 think there's no passing.

In 92 and 93 the Williams was so dominant Mansell and Prost pulled away from the field in most races. If there was passing down the field the cameras weren't watching. Well, even though they did put the backfield scraps on camera more often when the leader was being boring, the public who doesn't watch only hears of Prost and Mansell. Some radio report lasting 5 seconds telling them the result the next day. Little activity gets reported. This would certainly give them the impression there's no passing. Then a series of years when one car or another was to a lesser degree doing similar dominating, serving only to compound such ill conceived notions.

How many of us have had conversations at work or wherever, in a group where you're the only F1 fan, where the others tell you F1 is processional, when just the day before you witnessed 40 passes on live TV? People just like to parrot whatever they're fed to try to sound intelligent.