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[Hammer278]

Was just reading Stefano's comments:

The 45-year-old expressed his hopes, finally, for a greater degree of overtaking in F1 2011, thanks to the return following two decades away of Pirelli and the softer, less durable tyres the Italian manufacturer is planning to bring compared to its predecessor Bridgestone. Forecasting a substantial impact upon the racing, Domenicali also predicted an impact from the new adjustable rear wing – although whether that impact will be a positive or negative one, he is less sure.

“On the rear tyres there are still some steps to be done,” he acknowledged, pointing to the relative dearth of pre-season testing time to perfect them and admitting that he hopes for some vital wet running before the in-season ban kicks in, “but this year, qualifying should not be as important as it was last season. Last season was very interesting and competitive, but there wasn’t a lot of overtaking. This is a fundamental aspect which must be worked on.

“The driver running behind another one will be able to activate [the rear wing] to get in the slipstream only at determined points around the track, and only if the gap between himself and his rival is very tight. It will be up to race direction to signal the possibility with a light in the cockpit.

“However, I wonder – besides helping overtaking, will this system make the duels more spectacular or too predictable? At the moment I’m a bit sceptical, but I hope to be wrong. I also hope that the TVs find a way to make people understand on-screen who has activated the mechanism and who hasn’t, otherwise you won’t understand a thing anymore...”

_____________________________________

Does anyone feel this dumbs down the concept of 'racing'? For example, Fernando in a slower Ferrari holding Lewis back in a McLaren which is (at that point of the race) stronger and Lewis simply flies by using this technology. Where's the merit of the overtake? The driver in front always has the excuse that the rear wing rule was in favour and there's nothing to do.

IMO, if a driver holds back another faster driver for x number of laps it would add to credibility and racing skills of the 'defender' as well. This new concept steals this away from the driver not only defending, but attacking as well. The overtakes would lose value and we can never say "Driver X is a tough guy to overtake" anymore.

This is a stupid rule.

[nish2280]

I did make a thread called the overtaking working group but i guess it failed

But i am also concerned about what your talking about. I mean the drivers arnt even going to bother trying to overtake on any other part of the track because they know they will be able to overtake on a particular straight assigned by the stewards.

[Jabberwocky]

look at another way, if they are about the same sort of speed you could end up with lewis uses his wing and alonso defends for 3 or 4 corners, then Lewis overtakes, at the next corner Alonso can then use his wing to attack Lewis, and so on and so forth. A race of Lewis and Alonso battling it out.

However what if 3 cars are battling it out? does cars 2 and 3 get to use the wing or just car 3?

[nish2280]

look at another way, if they are about the same sort of speed you could end up with lewis uses his wing and alonso defends for 3 or 4 corners, then Lewis overtakes, at the next corner Alonso can then use his wing to attack Lewis, and so on and so forth. A race of Lewis and Alonso battling it out.

However what if 3 cars are battling it out? does cars 2 and 3 get to use the wing or just car 3?

But the wing can only be collapsed once race officials allow it to and that is assigned to happen when a car is 1 sec behind another one a specific part of the track.

That means the wing will drop on a straight (for example the back barcelona straight) and the overtake will be made there due to the reduction in drag of the car with the collapsed wing. There is a very small chance that lewis wont get past Alonso on the straight and its likely that Lewis wont even bother overtaking anywhere else unless he tries to force Alonso to make a block so that he cant make a block later on the straight. But you are right they will keep battling but only to overtake on the assigned straight or if one makes a mistake (unlikely).

And i think they will allow the 2 cars behind to use their wing if they are all within a second of each other.

[Hammer278]

Understand what you're saying Jabberwocky, but if Car 1 is faster on overall per lap compared to Car 2, lets say at the beginning of the race, it is going to be very difficult for Car 2 to stay behind Car 1 (once overtaken) to take advantage the next time they come back to the designated track area.

This is going to make it less exciting, yes we'll have more straightforward overtaking but whats the point? I enjoy each overtake as a collective amount of skill and perseverance...which is why I think I have the right to look down on ABC series like Nascar for instance.

This would mean the days where drivers keep other drivers behind (in a superior car) for laps on end are going to be very difficult to find again. Like Stefano, I hope my assumptions are wrong.

[Hexagram]

This topic was talked about in a lot of detail recently.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9654

[spankyham]

look at another way, if they are about the same sort of speed you could end up with lewis uses his wing and alonso defends for 3 or 4 corners, then Lewis overtakes, at the next corner Alonso can then use his wing to attack Lewis, and so on and so forth. A race of Lewis and Alonso battling it out.

I think the problem with the above scenario is this, Fernando is behind Lewis and they are circulating as a pair in 1st and 2nd place. There's a dozen or so laps to go.
Lewis has been faster all day, and fastest in qualifying.
Fernando is hanging on, perhaps with the aid of tows down the straight or slightly better tyre condition - but definitely not faster than Lewis.

Why on earth, even if the little light comes on every time he goes down the main straight, would he use the magic pass button? I guarantee he will hang in there until the penultimate lap, then use the assistance of the race stewards to get past a driver neither he or his car could do. He'll wait until the last lap to make sure it can't be used against him later in the race.

We all know how we like to support our drivers and their skills, but, I'd bet, deep down, no real Tifoso (or any true F1 fan) would be feeling "proud" of that pass.

This is a stupid, untested, artificial rule.

[Hammer278]

Hexagram that's talking about 2011 regs as a whole. Its not on the 1st page, and I started this based on Stefanos comments on the rear wing rule. Not all regs.

[Hammer278]

look at another way, if they are about the same sort of speed you could end up with lewis uses his wing and alonso defends for 3 or 4 corners, then Lewis overtakes, at the next corner Alonso can then use his wing to attack Lewis, and so on and so forth. A race of Lewis and Alonso battling it out.

I think the problem with the above scenario is this, Fernando is behind Lewis and they are circulating as a pair in 1st and 2nd place. There's a dozen or so laps to go.
Lewis has been faster all day, and fastest in qualifying.
Fernando is hanging on, perhaps with the aid of tows down the straight or slightly better tyre condition - but definitely not faster than Lewis.

Why on earth, even if the little light comes on every time he goes down the main straight, would he use the magic pass button? I guarantee he will hang in there until the penultimate lap, then use the assistance of the race stewards to get past a driver neither he or his car could do. He'll wait until the last lap to make sure it can't be used against him later in the race.

We all know how we like to support our drivers and their skills, but, I'd bet, deep down, no real Tifoso (or any true F1 fan) would be feeling "proud" of that pass.

This is a stupid, untested, artificial rule.

Exactly...another scenario why I'm saying this rule is going to dumb down the sport and its results. The 'climax' can simply be watered down to the fact of great timing great place (1 second behind)....

[Robert12010]

at the end of the day we're not able to say how good or bad its going to work at the moment, but i agree that its not proper overtaking, its manufactured

[FRAFPDD]

look at another way, if they are about the same sort of speed you could end up with lewis uses his wing and alonso defends for 3 or 4 corners, then Lewis overtakes, at the next corner Alonso can then use his wing to attack Lewis, and so on and so forth. A race of Lewis and Alonso battling it out.

I think the problem with the above scenario is this, Fernando is behind Lewis and they are circulating as a pair in 1st and 2nd place. There's a dozen or so laps to go.
Lewis has been faster all day, and fastest in qualifying.
Fernando is hanging on, perhaps with the aid of tows down the straight or slightly better tyre condition - but definitely not faster than Lewis.

Why on earth, even if the little light comes on every time he goes down the main straight, would he use the magic pass button? I guarantee he will hang in there until the penultimate lap, then use the assistance of the race stewards to get past a driver neither he or his car could do. He'll wait until the last lap to make sure it can't be used against him later in the race.


We all know how we like to support our drivers and their skills, but, I'd bet, deep down, no real Tifoso (or any true F1 fan) would be feeling "proud" of that pass.

This is a stupid, untested, artificial rule.

there are a few things youve missedout
or overlooked, no driver in their right mind will risk a win by waiting for the last lap, secondly if your example is that lewis is faster then alonso, considering you can only use it at certain points, lewis will slowly but SURELY creep away once hes made the initial pass, and
if isnt faster cause of corners, hes fast in a straight line, which means its even harder to overtake using the rear winf then it would be usually.

this rule is clever simple and effective.



you guys dont seem to think this rear wing idea hasnt been thought out, these are f1 engineers for petes sake, also, surely in the same way it might be artificial. and unfair, its also unfair that a driver is held up cause of captain slow in fronts dirty air.

[Hammer278]

you guys dont seem to think this rear wing idea hasnt been thought out, these are f1 engineers for petes sake, also, surely in the same way it might be artificial. and unfair, its also unfair that a driver is held up cause of captain slow in fronts dirty air.

Captain slow is in a slower car thus, slower? And that doesn't mean its unfair, it's called racing. Then why not just let all the slower cars in the race just give way like backmarkers to the fastest cars and Captain Speedys?

This rear wing nonsense is an outlet for drivers with superior cars to just blast past with less preparations entering the corner before, negotiating it better than the driver in front, and getting the power down earlier.

[Jabberwocky]

look at another way, if they are about the same sort of speed you could end up with lewis uses his wing and alonso defends for 3 or 4 corners, then Lewis overtakes, at the next corner Alonso can then use his wing to attack Lewis, and so on and so forth. A race of Lewis and Alonso battling it out.

I think the problem with the above scenario is this, Fernando is behind Lewis and they are circulating as a pair in 1st and 2nd place. There's a dozen or so laps to go.
Lewis has been faster all day, and fastest in qualifying.
Fernando is hanging on, perhaps with the aid of tows down the straight or slightly better tyre condition - but definitely not faster than Lewis.

Why on earth, even if the little light comes on every time he goes down the main straight, would he use the magic pass button? I guarantee he will hang in there until the penultimate lap, then use the assistance of the race stewards to get past a driver neither he or his car could do. He'll wait until the last lap to make sure it can't be used against him later in the race.

We all know how we like to support our drivers and their skills, but, I'd bet, deep down, no real Tifoso (or any true F1 fan) would be feeling "proud" of that pass.

This is a stupid, untested, artificial rule.

OK take that on a step forward, Car 1 will try and make sure he is over 1 second ahead on the last lap and Car 2 will try and not get him get such a big lead, so drivers are gonna be pushing to the end which means that tired drivers on old tires are gonna start to make mistakes and stuff like that makes good racing.

[spankyham]

OK take that on a step forward, Car 1 will try and make sure he is over 1 second ahead on the last lap and Car 2 will try and not get him get such a big lead, so drivers are gonna be pushing to the end which means that tired drivers on old tires are gonna start to make mistakes and stuff like that makes good racing.

I really hope all the optimism about this rule is correct.

I can remember innumerable laps at many races last year where 2 cars were locked together lap after lap. I'm sure the guy in front would have pulled away if he could have.

How anyone can be so confident about exactly how this will work and how effective it will be without it ever being tested is totally beyond me.

And, in the end, if it works exactly how everyone wants it to, I for one, will consider a pass, made possible by some 3rd party (not the car or the driver) as crap and not worthy of any praise.

[nish2280]

look at another way, if they are about the same sort of speed you could end up with lewis uses his wing and alonso defends for 3 or 4 corners, then Lewis overtakes, at the next corner Alonso can then use his wing to attack Lewis, and so on and so forth. A race of Lewis and Alonso battling it out.

I think the problem with the above scenario is this, Fernando is behind Lewis and they are circulating as a pair in 1st and 2nd place. There's a dozen or so laps to go.
Lewis has been faster all day, and fastest in qualifying.
Fernando is hanging on, perhaps with the aid of tows down the straight or slightly better tyre condition - but definitely not faster than Lewis.

Why on earth, even if the little light comes on every time he goes down the main straight, would he use the magic pass button? I guarantee he will hang in there until the penultimate lap, then use the assistance of the race stewards to get past a driver neither he or his car could do. He'll wait until the last lap to make sure it can't be used against him later in the race.


We all know how we like to support our drivers and their skills, but, I'd bet, deep down, no real Tifoso (or any true F1 fan) would be feeling "proud" of that pass.

This is a stupid, untested, artificial rule.

there are a few things youve missedout
or overlooked, no driver in their right mind will risk a win by waiting for the last lap, secondly if your example is that lewis is faster then alonso, considering you can only use it at certain points, lewis will slowly but SURELY creep away once hes made the initial pass, and
if isnt faster cause of corners, hes fast in a straight line, which means its even harder to overtake using the rear winf then it would be usually.

this rule is clever simple and effective.



you guys dont seem to think this rear wing idea hasnt been thought out, these are f1 engineers for petes sake, also, surely in the same way it might be artificial. and unfair, its also unfair that a driver is held up cause of captain slow in fronts dirty air.

Why is it harder to overtake with the wing down?