FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[Robert12010]

It's not as though FOM is allowing the teams and companies to work outside the box these days in terms of making engines. I mean we have pathetic V8s at the moment and we are soon to move to engines that produce half as much power as the older turbo engines we had in the 80s it's crazy!

sadly green peace and friends of the earth are being listened too !

[texasmr2]

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we are soon to move to engines that produce half as much power as the older turbo engines we had in the 80s it's crazy!

Now lets not forget that those engines ran unlimited boost and trick fuel. What we are seeing is just a progression that was bound to happen sooner or later as the FIA try's to make F1 a more public platform. I'm happy to have the turbo's back simply because I'm a boostaholic yet I wish they would not be boost limited or fuel regulated yet it is something I/we must accept. There is no telling what kind of changes the FIA will make for the new turbo era or even during or after when they see that they may not be getting the show they wanted.

Just food for thought

sadly green peace and friends of the earth are being listened too !

Yes it is sad because if they knew better or did some research they would learn that a racing engine on proper racing fuel runs cleaner and produces much less harmfull emissions than a regular production vehicle.

[Tifoso]

F1 is supposed to be about the best that can be done. I just don't think these new engines is anything like the best that can be achieved.

[texasmr2]

F1 is supposed to be about the best that can be done. I just don't think these new engines is anything like the best that can be achieved.

What would you propose? Seeing as how so many production cars are now returning too turbochargers for more efficiency, equal if not greater hp at smaller displacements and less weight and fuel savings I think it is a great move.

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

F1 is supposed to be about the best that can be done. I just don't think these new engines is anything like the best that can be achieved.

What would you propose? Seeing as how so many production cars are now returning too turbochargers for more efficiency, equal if not greater hp at smaller displacements and less weight and fuel savings I think it is a great move.

A decent sized turbo, intercooler and associated plumbing will weigh as much the a weight lost by lopping off one bank cylinders. Point of fact, the engine packages of the most recent F1 turbo era weighed more than the eight and 12-pot mills they replaced.

A blown engine featuring fuel economy will use a smaller and lighter turbo (and intercooler, if any) than one featuring BHP. It is a certainty the teams will exploit the new combination of fuel pressure, boost pressure, displacement and volumetric efficiency to produce maximum BHP without the slightest regard for economy.

The FIA habitually underestimate the resourcefulness of the teams' engineers. Not only did the cars lose 20% engine displacement in 2006 and 1000 RPMs in 2007, the OWG said their changes would reduce downforce by 50%, yet two circuits had their lap record broken in 2009 and three more in 2010.

I am certain the FIA are underestimating them again. The only way this new engine formula will produce any significant fuel savings is if the FIA accompany it with a reduction in mechanical grip or aerodynamic downforce or both.

[texasmr2]

F1 is supposed to be about the best that can be done. I just don't think these new engines is anything like the best that can be achieved.

What would you propose? Seeing as how so many production cars are now returning too turbochargers for more efficiency, equal if not greater hp at smaller displacements and less weight and fuel savings I think it is a great move.

A decent sized turbo, intercooler and associated plumbing will weigh as much the a weight lost by lopping off one bank cylinders.

Sorry but I must disagree as I know alittle something about turbocharging and it's associated 'plumbings' if I may and there is no way they can compare to the weight of a bank of cylinders .

Point of fact, the engine packages of the most recent F1 turbo era weighed more than the eight and 12-pot mills they replaced.

Well that was the TT era not the single turbo proposed so 1/2 of the weight. We do have almost 20yr's of turbo developement to rely on and it's associated hardware.

A blown engine featuring fuel economy will use a smaller and lighter turbo (and intercooler, if any) than one featuring BHP. It is a certainty the teams will exploit the new combination of fuel pressure, boost pressure, displacement and volumetric efficiency to produce maximum BHP without the slightest regard for economy.

The FIA habitually underestimate the resourcefulness of the teams' engineers. Not only did the cars lose 20% engine displacement in 2006 and 1000 RPMs in 2007, the OWG said their changes would reduce downforce by 50%, yet two circuits had their lap record broken in 2009 and three more in 2010.

[darwin dali]

I am certain the FIA are underestimating them again. The only way this new engine formula will produce any significant fuel savings is if the FIA accompany it with a reduction in mechanical grip or aerodynamic downforce or both.

Not the only way. And I propose a much more efficient way: limit the available fuel per race, period!

[vaptin]

I am certain the FIA are underestimating them again. The only way this new engine formula will produce any significant fuel savings is if the FIA accompany it with a reduction in mechanical grip or aerodynamic downforce or both.

Not the only way. And I propose a much more efficient way: limit the available fuel per race, period!

I'm with you on this, goal orientated approach rather than attempting to control the methods, openly opens up room for manoeuvre.

[spankyham]

Personally I don't give a hoot about fuel savings from current F1 engines. They are already so much more efficient than regular engines anyway.

Any new engine should be based on being the best - not driven by the mediocrity of production cars, and what's popular in them.

I was so disappointed in Ferrari for caving in on the new engine specs, but, this statement today by LDM is at least a ray of hope for me that common sense will prevail.

"Specifically on the 1.6 litre four cylinder engines to debut in 2013, he admitted: "I can't get used to it. It's not for a sport in which we once had 12 cylinder engines."

"Ferrari will not stand in the way, but we are saying very clearly that we are not happy about it." "

For me LDM's 100% right. These new rules are simply pandering to potential new entry teams who basically have admitted they can't cut it with the big teams in F1 as it currently is. For me these new teams are saying "Lower the F1 standards/level to something we think we can compete at - then we'll think about joining".

[Robert12010]

Personally I don't give a hoot about fuel savings from current F1 engines. They are already so much more efficient than regular engines anyway.

Any new engine should be based on being the best - not driven by the mediocrity of production cars, and what's popular in them.

I was so disappointed in Ferrari for caving in on the new engine specs, but, this statement today by LDM is at least a ray of hope for me that common sense will prevail.

"Specifically on the 1.6 litre four cylinder engines to debut in 2013, he admitted: "I can't get used to it. It's not for a sport in which we once had 12 cylinder engines."

"Ferrari will not stand in the way, but we are saying very clearly that we are not happy about it." "

For me LDM's 100% right. These new rules are simply pandering to potential new entry teams who basically have admitted they can't cut it with the big teams in F1 as it currently is. For me these new teams are saying "Lower the F1 standards/level to something we think we can compete at - then we'll think about joining".

i agree with that,formula1 is the pinnacle of motorsport and it shouldnt be softened up to allow these outside idiots to take control, i dont care if green peace or the friends of the earth or whatever dont like it, and never mind about mad max, he should focus on improving road safety instead or something like rather than going oh this is wrong thats wrong under your proposals we would be gp 2 class a!!!

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

...

Point of fact, the engine packages of the most recent F1 turbo era weighed more than the eight and 12-pot mills they replaced.

Well that was the TT era not the single turbo proposed so 1/2 of the weight....

Sorry, the BMW M12/13/1 lump run in the Benetton B186 in 1986 -- the final year of unlimited boost, and the most powerful engine ever campaigned in F1 -- had but a single turbo and weighed 170 kg with the intercooler. Current engine spec weight is 95 kg.



One -- count 'em -- one turbo.

[texasmr2]

Very cool pic but I'm wondering if it was just the matter of BMW using an iron block instead of aluminum block? I could not find any info regarding those specifics but I find it hard to believe, and I could be wrong , that a 4 pot can weighs more than a 6 pot without some variation .

[stonemonkey]

F1 is supposed to be about the best that can be done. I just don't think these new engines is anything like the best that can be achieved.

It's about the best that can be done within the regulations of the formula and there have to be regulations of some sort over the engine. Personally I find the RPM limiting very fake and would rather see the engine development constrained more by either (not both) fuel consumption or by engine size/configuration and seeing what they can really get out of an engine within those constraints.

[spankyham]

I think we are missing the point when we argue about turbo or non-turbo. The real point is that the new engine is specified to have 750Hp. That is derived from the engine WITH KERS. KERS is spec'd to provide ~120Hp so that leaves the engine somewhere between 600-650Hp. Got it, HP in the low 600's. (BBC Ref link)

So, in 2013, when the drivers press the KERS button, the cars will still be less powerful than current F1 cars. When the KERS is depleted, the 2013 spec cars will be less powerful than a current GP2. That is the point!

Stupid! stupid! stupid!

[myownalias]

If it improves the spectacle of racing then I'm all for it; there's no point having 24 850bhp cars following line-a-stern... effectively having a push to pass button should improve the racing spectacle but of course that may not be the case; all the recent changes to the car design hasn't amounted to a hill of beans when it comes to overtaking!