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[Big Azza]

You sure like throwing that 'cheated' word around when it suits your agenda, your team are no angels either so get a grip on reality and push your bias aside for once.

I support a driver not a team . And I dont write the rules. The reality is that team orders are against the rules, doing something against the rules is cheating.

You'll have to change your sig because Vettel will be the youngest ever champion this year.

[bud]

Passing the safety car is against the rules - Was level with SC wasnt as clear cut as you Ferrari lambs like to make out. Besides he was punished.
Lying about being passed is cheating - so is lying about team orders hey Massa and the whole Ferrari team. Funny you dont have a problem with their lies do you lamb boy!
Changing line 4 times to stop the Renault passing him in Malaysia is against the rules Weaving on the straights is frowned upon but not sure its against the rules or else he would have been punished. He got a warning. Changing lines twice in the braking zone isnt allowed. Leggard even spoke of that rule in Brazil.
Pit lane racing is against the rules - tell that to Fernando.
Not leaving enough fuel to give a sample is against the rules - He did leave enough fuel thats why he stopped on track. Post race they changed the rule to the driver having to get back to parc ferme under his own power.

[The_Stig_Money]

In 46 years we will all remember that Alonso has 7 undeserved points, Hamilton is a "cheater", and Red Bull is the most honest team on the grid!

I cant imagine all the other stuff that will happen in those 46 years (Vettel clones, Bernie cryogenically frozen, and the Scuderia Coca-Cola team wins the WCC)

[racechick]

In 46 years we will all remember that Alonso has 7 undeserved points, Hamilton is a "cheater", and Red Bull is the most honest team on the grid!

No, it was Alonso that cheated. Surely you cant have forgotten that already.

[Robert12010]

its going to be intrested to see what happens between the two red bull's and if massa is in front of alonso, i wonder what will happen then? will it be round 2 of a team order in ferrari? all will be reavealed!

[vaptin]

its going to be intrested to see what happens between the two red bull's and if massa is in front of alonso, i wonder what will happen then? will it be round 2 of a team order in ferrari? all will be reavealed!

How the hell is Massa gonna get in front of the redbulls? Cut a couple of corners?

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Mclaren used team orders in 08, moved Hekki out of Lewis's way, again, Lewis passing the safety car was against the rules, and he got a none punishment from it (he didn't lose a position), hence he's a cheater then and doesn't deserve the championship racechick? He did break the rules, Vettel broke the rules when he was more than 10 car lengths behind the safety car, does he not deserve the championship?

[stonemonkey]

ok, so what if the order in the race ends up Vettel, Webber, Hamilton, Massa, Alonso? Vettel wins the DC? Then Ferrari swap Alonso and Massa, Alonso wins the DC, Then Red Bull swap Vettel and Webber, Webber wins the DC, Then Alonso's engine blows, wtf do Red Bull do then? Whatever they did it would be quite some podium and press conference.

[racechick]

its going to be intrested to see what happens between the two red bull's and if massa is in front of alonso, i wonder what will happen then? will it be round 2 of a team order in ferrari? all will be reavealed!

How the hell is Massa gonna get in front of the redbulls? Cut a couple of corners?

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Mclaren used team orders in 08, moved Hekki out of Lewis's way, again, Lewis passing the safety car was against the rules, and he got a none punishment from it (he didn't lose a position), hence he's a cheater then and doesn't deserve the championship racechick? He did break the rules, Vettel broke the rules when he was more than 10 car lengths behind the safety car, does he not deserve the championship?

The safety car was marginal not a deliberate attempt to cheat. He received a penalty (no he didnt loose a position, he was lucky there, but he could have done)
Vettel broke the rules yes, and he also was duly punished.
Alonso broke the rules and was not punished.

[vaptin]

He was punished the most they could realistically give him, precedent and the need for proof wouldn't allow for any greater punishment. All teams are prepared to use team orders, no point singling out Ferrari for it.

[racechick]

He was punished the most they could realistically give him, precedent and the need for proof wouldn't allow for any greater punishment. All teams are prepared to use team orders, no point singling out Ferrari for it.

The least they could have done was switch the points back to how they should have been. Thats hardly a punishment, just restoring a status quo. 'No precedent' isnt an arguement. They could have set a precedent(theyve done that before big time!) The only precedent theyve set is that its really cheap to cheat and switch drivers using team orders-might as well go for it.

[vaptin]

He was punished the most they could realistically give him, precedent and the need for proof wouldn't allow for any greater punishment. All teams are prepared to use team orders, no point singling out Ferrari for it.

The least they could have done was switch the points back to how they should have been. Thats hardly a punishment, just restoring a status quo. 'No precedent' isnt an arguement. They could have set a precedent(theyve done that before big time!) The only precedent theyve set is that its really cheap to cheat and switch drivers using team orders-might as well go for it.

No, the precedent has already been set, if they switched the points around they'd have to do that for every other case of team orders previously used by not acted upon. Ferrari would've taken it above the FIA and legally enforced them to do it. There's not really anything immoral about the concept of teams telling their drivers what to do either, its just bad for Massa, but he drivers under the employ of the team not himself.

[racechick]

He was punished the most they could realistically give him, precedent and the need for proof wouldn't allow for any greater punishment. All teams are prepared to use team orders, no point singling out Ferrari for it.

The least they could have done was switch the points back to how they should have been. Thats hardly a punishment, just restoring a status quo. 'No precedent' isnt an arguement. They could have set a precedent(theyve done that before big time!) The only precedent theyve set is that its really cheap to cheat and switch drivers using team orders-might as well go for it.

No, the precedent has already been set, if they switched the points around they'd have to do that for every other case of team orders previously used by not acted upon. Ferrari would've taken it above the FIA and legally enforced them to do it. There's not really anything immoral about the concept of teams telling their drivers what to do either, its just bad for Massa, but he drivers under the employ of the team not himself.

Then they would have to issue retrosepctive penalties. They dont do that. The precedent would be from here on. Besides Ferrari were found guilty, these other teams you talk of werent. And what about lying to stewards? Isnt there a precedent already set about punishing that? And yet Ferrari and Massa lied without punishment.

[vaptin]

The lying to the Stewards is conditional on proving team orders were used, thats tricky enough. "from a legal perspective, you have to proove (or something like that)", Jean Todt.

The precedent has already been set, the entire point of it is you stick to it, what was that FIA statement? "we accept that other teams have used team orders in the past and no punishment was given". It'll be changed by next year hopefully.

Team orders are a part of f1, it was a level playing field. So Alonso didn't get some unfair advantage only he could get.

[f1ea]

ok, so what if the order in the race ends up Vettel, Webber, Hamilton, Massa, Alonso? Vettel wins the DC? Then Ferrari swap Alonso and Massa, Alonso wins the DC, Then Red Bull swap Vettel and Webber, Webber wins the DC, Then Alonso's engine blows, wtf do Red Bull do then? Whatever they did it would be quite some podium and press conference.

[Ichabod]

ok, so what if the order in the race ends up Vettel, Webber, Hamilton, Massa, Alonso? Vettel wins the DC? Then Ferrari swap Alonso and Massa, Alonso wins the DC, Then Red Bull swap Vettel and Webber, Webber wins the DC, Then Alonso's engine blows, wtf do Red Bull do then? Whatever they did it would be quite some podium and press conference.

I don't think Vettel will yield until the last lap Barrichello style!!