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[billindenver]

Felipe was only out of it psychologically after his team stuffed him in Germany. Before that if you remember Felipe was leading while Alonso was having his 'mistake fest'. If you're saying he was unfit to drive due to his crash last year then it was Ferrari's error in giving him that drive. They should have chosen someone who WAS race fit.But having selected him, you dont s*** on him! But you know leading the current field is pretty damn good for a psychologically unfit driver.

If you cant see the difference between a driver who can no longer win the world championship (because there are not enough points left for him to do so)helping his team mate who can still win the championship..and a driver who is ordered to give up his win when he has every chance of winning the world championship early in the season; well theres no point debating this further with you.

But as a race fan, am I not entitled to watch the two team mates scrap it out on track? Isn't that what the rules are for? Were you NOT just a very short time ago ranting from atop your soap box about Ferrari denying the fans that right? Will you rant just as loudly when McLaren do it...again? You were strangely silent about the Heikki maneuver...but we will chalk that one up to McLaren fans being more hypocritical back then...or mass hysteria. Surely if it happens again, especially after the uproar of self righteous indignation towards Ferrari...the McLaren lambs will react differently. Button is the current world champion. Surely he has a right to fight it out on track. How can you not be outraged at the suggestion that team orders may be used after all of the posturing and chest thumping about McLaren not ever doing so? You and your flock have spent months screaming into the wind and now your team does exactly what you've been ranting about....where is your protest?

[FRAFPDD]

Actually it is a documented fact (search the forum for a thread titled something like " what was it about germany 2010s team orders that bothered you") that the reason people were annoyed were three majority vote reasons: 1. it was the anniversary of massas accident and he was robbed of a special win, 2. ferrari used team orders way too early in the season, and 3. ferrari were too blatant in their execution of team orders.

Once you Ferrari fans have searched this forum and found that thread you can henceforth shut the **** up. Your argument that Mclaren etc fans are hypocrites is pretty void when the reasons for them being against your team orders are for the three above reasons. If Mclaren fans had majority voted say an option: " ferrari used team orders" then youve got a point, but they didnt. And there is evidence to back that up.

None of them three majority voted reasons why people (or mclaren fans as tyou feel the need to call them all) could be used against a team order Mclaren used now, unless its the anniversary of jensons accident, the numerous threads on whitmarsh saying button will "co-operate" with lewis is somehow a blatant team order call, and its still too early in the season at brazil to use team orders. Someone tell me how to search for threads on here cause i dont know how but remember this thread vividly.

[nish2280]

Felipe was only out of it psychologically after his team stuffed him in Germany. Before that if you remember Felipe was leading while Alonso was having his 'mistake fest'. If you're saying he was unfit to drive due to his crash last year then it was Ferrari's error in giving him that drive. They should have chosen someone who WAS race fit.But having selected him, you dont s*** on him! But you know leading the current field is pretty damn good for a psychologically unfit driver.

If you cant see the difference between a driver who can no longer win the world championship (because there are not enough points left for him to do so)helping his team mate who can still win the championship..and a driver who is ordered to give up his win when he has every chance of winning the world championship early in the season; well theres no point debating this further with you.

But as a race fan, am I not entitled to watch the two team mates scrap it out on track? Isn't that what the rules are for? Were you NOT just a very short time ago ranting from atop your soap box about Ferrari denying the fans that right? Will you rant just as loudly when McLaren do it...again? You were strangely silent about the Heikki maneuver...but we will chalk that one up to McLaren fans being more hypocritical back then...or mass hysteria. Surely if it happens again, especially after the uproar of self righteous indignation towards Ferrari...the McLaren lambs will react differently. Button is the current world champion. Surely he has a right to fight it out on track. How can you not be outraged at the suggestion that team orders may be used after all of the posturing and chest thumping about McLaren not ever doing so? You and your flock have spent months screaming into the wind and now your team does exactly what you've been ranting about....where is your protest?

People dont realize that when they exempted Ferrari from the punishment for using team orders they found McLaren guilty of using them as well.

[racechick]

Felipe was only out of it psychologically after his team stuffed him in Germany. Before that if you remember Felipe was leading while Alonso was having his 'mistake fest'. If you're saying he was unfit to drive due to his crash last year then it was Ferrari's error in giving him that drive. They should have chosen someone who WAS race fit.But having selected him, you dont s*** on him! But you know leading the current field is pretty damn good for a psychologically unfit driver.

If you cant see the difference between a driver who can no longer win the world championship (because there are not enough points left for him to do so)helping his team mate who can still win the championship..and a driver who is ordered to give up his win when he has every chance of winning the world championship early in the season; well theres no point debating this further with you.

But as a race fan, am I not entitled to watch the two team mates scrap it out on track? Isn't that what the rules are for? Were you NOT just a very short time ago ranting from atop your soap box about Ferrari denying the fans that right? Will you rant just as loudly when McLaren do it...again? You were strangely silent about the Heikki maneuver...but we will chalk that one up to McLaren fans being more hypocritical back then...or mass hysteria. Surely if it happens again, especially after the uproar of self righteous indignation towards Ferrari...the McLaren lambs will react differently. Button is the current world champion. Surely he has a right to fight it out on track. How can you not be outraged at the suggestion that team orders may be used after all of the posturing and chest thumping about McLaren not ever doing so? You and your flock have spent months screaming into the wind and now your team does exactly what you've been ranting about....where is your protest?

Ah but Bill, you misinterpret the rules of the FIA and the feeling from F1 fans. More of that later.

Oh boy do I remember the time Heiki let Leiws past, if only because you refer to it every second post! (You always however seem to forget the reminder you are given about the differing strategies they were on back in the refuelling era. Im not informing you agen, go look it up)

Where is (my, our ,lambs, whoever upsets you)'s protest against team rules? Its at the place where team mates are denied the chance to go for the champonship when they have a chance to win it.

And back to your misunderstanding of the FIA rules:-

'The FIA have long said that team orders-and thus the possible manipulation of a race result are permitted in the title run-in, making any decison legitimate'.

Dont give me that "entitled to watch team mates scrap" nonsense. Where was your desire to watch team mates scrap in Germany?????

[myownalias]

'The FIA have long said that team orders-and thus the possible manipulation of a race result are permitted in the title run-in, making any decison legitimate'.

Not since the start of the 2003 season, team orders are banned outright regardless of the season's progress. The old rule made more sense, which basically allowed team orders as long as the team could show good reason, e.g one driver is too far behind to realistically win the title etc.

[SennaVille]

Looks like we've got a topic for discussion that is sure to entertain till Korea.

I love that this is the first reply to the thread.

Two GP's left and it's still top of the page, well done* racechick




*welldone in texmix

[Juliet P]

Felipe was only out of it psychologically after his team stuffed him in Germany. Before that if you remember Felipe was leading while Alonso was having his 'mistake fest'. If you're saying he was unfit to drive due to his crash last year then it was Ferrari's error in giving him that drive. They should have chosen someone who WAS race fit.But having selected him, you dont s*** on him! But you know leading the current field is pretty damn good for a psychologically unfit driver.

If you cant see the difference between a driver who can no longer win the world championship (because there are not enough points left for him to do so)helping his team mate who can still win the championship..and a driver who is ordered to give up his win when he has every chance of winning the world championship early in the season; well theres no point debating this further with you.

But as a race fan, am I not entitled to watch the two team mates scrap it out on track? Isn't that what the rules are for? Were you NOT just a very short time ago ranting from atop your soap box about Ferrari denying the fans that right? Will you rant just as loudly when McLaren do it...again? You were strangely silent about the Heikki maneuver...but we will chalk that one up to McLaren fans being more hypocritical back then...or mass hysteria. Surely if it happens again, especially after the uproar of self righteous indignation towards Ferrari...the McLaren lambs will react differently. Button is the current world champion. Surely he has a right to fight it out on track. How can you not be outraged at the suggestion that team orders may be used after all of the posturing and chest thumping about McLaren not ever doing so? You and your flock have spent months screaming into the wind and now your team does exactly what you've been ranting about....where is your protest?

People dont realize that when they exempted Ferrari from the punishment for using team orders they found McLaren guilty of using them as well.

They did not! Ferrari cited in their defence several other examples that in Ferrari's opinion constituted other episodes of team orders that went unpunished. At no stage does the FIA say that it agrees with Ferrari's assertion that they were effectively team orders.

As to the rest, there are some arguing that Massa was psychologically out of the Championship, therefore team orders were okay in Hockenheim. What an utterly specious and baseless argument. There is an enormous difference between blatant team orders half way through the season and one team mate supporting another in the last two races. If the former is allowed then it gives a massively unfair advantage to teams like Ferrari who prioritise one driver over another and disadvantages more honourable teams who try (to varying degrees of success - nobody is perfect) to give both drivers an equal chance.

And Spankyham, it appears to me that you're having a whale of a time coming on here and deliberately winding people up. As far as I'm concerned you can just piss off.

[vaptin]

^The Fia pretty much admitted it, I recall a statement from Todt about how other teams had used team orders in the past and gotten away with it, it doesn't really matter which example specifically it was (aside from team colours arguments) but the fact it was there.

Unfair advantage to Ferrari? Every team on the grid uses team orders, this has been repeated time and time again by people in the know in f1.

Massa was effectively out of the championship, look at the points, Alonso was almost out of the championship. And Ferrari trusted in Alonso more, and they didn't want a rash overtaking manoeuvre ruining the 1-2.

I called Whitmarsh a hypocrite, why? Because he said he wouldn't employ team orders but let the drivers make the decision, but he's clearly pressuring Jenson to make that decision, not really different to what Ferrari did to Massa.

[billindenver]

And back to your misunderstanding of the FIA rules:-

'The FIA have long said that team orders-and thus the possible manipulation of a race result are permitted in the title run-in, making any decison legitimate'.

Dont give me that "entitled to watch team mates scrap" nonsense. Where was your desire to watch team mates scrap in Germany?????

I believe it is you who are misunderstanding the rules. Surely you have not gotten this many years past that rule change and are still unaware that it happened....right? The actual rule has been quoted in here so many times its ridiculous...and you've never bothered to read it? Come on now, you are smarter than that. The rule you are quoting was changed years and years ago. The new rule says no team orders, ever. Your quote above couldn't be more wrong if it also contained your prediction for Hamilton to win the WDC. The new rule, as ridiculous as it is, has never been enforced or even attempted to be enforced until Ferrari this year. Now, you're team is saying they are going to use team orders...and you are defending it. It's against the rules that you have spent the last several months ranting about. Team orders, team tactics, team support...it's all the same thing. It's the team telling one driver to finish behind the other. It affects the race result just as it did in 2008. It's against the rules. A stupid rule to be exact. A rule I think should not exist. I have no problem with team orders in cycling, F1, or any other team sport. The team mates scrapping argument came from your camp...I was simply pointing that fact out. You and yours have been ranting about that rule for months despite your own team not long ago pulling the exact move that Ferrari did.....and now that your team intends to break the rule, you are reversing your position. Flip-Flopping to use an american political term. I'm just pointing that fact out.

For the record. I'm no fan of Ferrari. If Ferrari fans were on a soapbox ranting about team orders...I would be giving them the same amount of ribbing. It's hypocrisy.

[What's Burning?]

Hypocrisy and rationalization go hand in hand, the argument hasn't been about the rules, or the fact that teams overtly or covertly break them, I am looking forward to have Jenson race to win, and make Hamilton pass if if he can. Or if he moves over, it's of his own free will, not from ham fisted radio message. If Hamilton had finished one or two more races, he wouldn't be in the predicament he's in now.

So I'm for letting them race, but if you can't understand the difference of a team maximizing their results in the last race of the year, versus mid season then you're just arguing for the sake of being right on a technicality.

Hypocrisy and rationalization go hand in hand and the conclusion always seems to favor one's point of view. I understand that orders are orders, but Ferrari's decision mid season is why I'm not a fan of their rationalizing their hypocrisy by blaming other teams for doing it now and equating the significance. If McLaren forces Jenson to yield position Lewis I'd be miffed, but I deffend Jenson's right to yield of his own accord if he so chooses and I dare anyone here to say that Massa gave way to Alonso of his own accord.

[vaptin]

Whitmarsh has been sending Button coded messages in the media,

Look at the points, Massa was pretty much out of the WDC.

[racechick]

And back to your misunderstanding of the FIA rules:-

'The FIA have long said that team orders-and thus the possible manipulation of a race result are permitted in the title run-in, making any decison legitimate'.

Dont give me that "entitled to watch team mates scrap" nonsense. Where was your desire to watch team mates scrap in Germany?????

I believe it is you who are misunderstanding the rules. Surely you have not gotten this many years past that rule change and are still unaware that it happened....right? The actual rule has been quoted in here so many times its ridiculous...and you've never bothered to read it? Come on now, you are smarter than that. The rule you are quoting was changed years and years ago. The new rule says no team orders, ever. Your quote above couldn't be more wrong if it also contained your prediction for Hamilton to win the WDC. The new rule, as ridiculous as it is, has never been enforced or even attempted to be enforced until Ferrari this year. Now, you're team is saying they are going to use team orders...and you are defending it. It's against the rules that you have spent the last several months ranting about. Team orders, team tactics, team support...it's all the same thing. It's the team telling one driver to finish behind the other. It affects the race result just as it did in 2008. It's against the rules. A stupid rule to be exact. A rule I think should not exist. I have no problem with team orders in cycling, F1, or any other team sport. The team mates scrapping argument came from your camp...I was simply pointing that fact out. You and yours have been ranting about that rule for months despite your own team not long ago pulling the exact move that Ferrari did.....and now that your team intends to break the rule, you are reversing your position. Flip-Flopping to use an american political term. I'm just pointing that fact out.

For the record. I'm no fan of Ferrari. If Ferrari fans were on a soapbox ranting about team orders...I would be giving them the same amount of ribbing. It's hypocrisy.

Actually I havent read all the rules becuase they are ludicrously long, but I have seen it written that what I said is the case...written recently. So its a bit wierd if its wrong but whatever, I'll accept it if its the case. Im not being Hypercritical, as ive stated on numerous occassions as have others....If one driver is out of contention thats a whole different ball game to stuffing a driver who is in contention.

You know what I have huge respect for Felipe Massa, he has integrity. And he goes well at Brazil. In fact he hasnt been beaten there since joining Ferrari. So Id just love it if he lost a little of his good nature this weekend and put up two metaphorical fingers at Ferrari and Alonso when hes asked to pull over, payback time!

[vaptin]

Alonso said he would welcome a win by Massa at Interlagos as it would take points away from his rivals.
"Felipe is normally very strong here," said Alonso.
"The best thing for him and even for me is to have Felipe win the race because it takes 25 points from everyone else.
"That is the biggest difference in points between positions - the difference between second and third and third and fourth is quite small.
"The worry for me is for another contender to take 25 points, so hopefully Felipe can win both races to help me. A win from him would be very welcome."

"Taking points away from other drivers that are fighting for the title is important," said the Brazilian. "So I see myself [doing that].
"If Alonso wins here it is good for the team. I think he can do it."

"I expect to win the race as well and I will do my best to win for the people," said Massa.
"Even after the race in Germany, when I arrived in Brazil people were very nice with me; they were fantastic and pushing me forward.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsp ... 160551.stm

[racechick]

"Even after the race in Germany" Thats a very telling statement.

[What's Burning?]

"Even after the race in Germany" Thats a very telling statement.

SHHHHHH don't point out the obvious you hypocryte!