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By scotty
#222368
Which is what I was just about to say. And even if that win lucky, think about how he regularly would finish 4th, 5th or 6th, and nearly got on the podium at Japan with only a few races under his belt.

Hamilton always had the best machinery. Vettel worked with what was literally a Blue Minardi, and won. And finished very highly when he wasn't winning.

I think he's just unlucky this year, and also some of his inexperience is starting to show, because he seems to be like a puppy that can't contain it's excitement and pees because of it. Soon this will come naturally to him. But his results in my opinion are better than any Schumacher, Senna and Hamilton. And really his qualifying is absolutely impressive.

Once he gets the right machinery, and a level head, I can see him winning 12 out of 13 GPs like Schumacher in '04.

People on this site accuse me of having an unusual love for Vettel - but I cannot fathom why everyone is quick to dismiss him. He can overtake, this Red Bull just doesn't allow him to. Driving in the Torro Rosso - I'm sure he definitely learned how to overtake. :nono:

So can someone explain to me, why am I wrong?


Because for every super performance like Monza '08, there is a very stupid mistake. Vettel got involved in 3 first lap incidents that year too, but i guess people tend to look back with rose tinted specs (that is not a personal comment). Even this year this is a trend - domination like Suzuka one week and utterly needless incidents like Spa and Turkey the next. Then there is all the little things that indicate he is not the complete driver by any stretch. One example would be in Bahrain this year, where he appeared to be losing way more time than he should have when his mechanical problem arose. This arguably cost him a position.

It could be argued that he still has potential and would definitely iron out these mistakes (that assumption happens quite a lot to people, it has to be said), but at the same time that is no guarantee, he could have just as easily merely reached his full potential at an earlier age, and this is already his maximum level. There is no doubting his huge speed, but that isn't a very useful tool of he can't back it up with consistency and race craft - as we are indeed witnessing this season.

What you have basically said in one part of your post is "if he becomes the best driver by miles and has the best car by miles, he'll dominate", but, erm, the same could be said of a hell of a lot of drivers...
By Gaz
#222369
I agree with Scotty people critize Lewis for making errors but this year he's only made one real error - monza and even that was unlucky.

But Vettles form is up and down like a yoyo he needs more time to get there if he can.

His WDC challenge is over unless he gets lucky
By Big Azza
#222375
I agree with these above two posts, but then my blatant bias starts to show as I can definitely excuse his mistake in Turkey, and Spa - well his car isn't very stable in overtaking, but yeah - probably his worst mistake.

Turkey - Team Orders were meant to be followed. The team orders were that the drivers MUST give each other room when racing. Vettel was under the impression Mark was following this order so he cut back across, expecting Webber to drop back.

But, he will learn from this that he shouldn't expect ANYTHING, but rather make calculated decisions. Learning curve.

Interesting statistic about DNFs, though... Since I started watching from Monaco '08, I recall his collision with Coulthard at Silverstone (but can't remember how it happened or who is at fault) - I cannot recall him making too many mistakes last year.

Obviously this year there have been quite a few. But I also think there is a problem with the car, too. Webber was only able to learn to overtake in Singapore. So it took him THAT long to be able to overtake in his car (he's made a couple of mistakes overtaking as well).

Why everyone dismissed his drive at Silverstone this year, and Brazil last year (both of which I'd confess I didn't watch, so I want Spanky to tell me how to watch them! :wavey: ) as just "he's lucky" or "he was overtaking slower cars" or Monaco - Seriously!? Start 2nd last and finish 5th? And everyone says that was luck? At MONACO? Strewth if you overtake 1 car at Monaco that's a feat in itself, and I do not think that he somehow overtook 15 cars during his pit stops.

The kid's got talent; it just frustrates me now that everyone seems to hate him and dismiss his epic drives. Seriously, if he didn't make that mistake behind the safety car, that would have been one of his most epic drives ever.

All he needs is a car that can overtake.
User avatar
By texasmr2
#222388
I do not dislike Vettel in any sense and he will most likely achieve great things in F1 and his current batch of mishap's are just a driver pushing for supremacy were anything but a win is a loss. He will just keep perfecting his racecraft and become quite the threat for all the other drivers.
User avatar
By nish2280
#222554
Which is what I was just about to say. And even if that win lucky, think about how he regularly would finish 4th, 5th or 6th, and nearly got on the podium at Japan with only a few races under his belt.

Hamilton always had the best machinery. Vettel worked with what was literally a Blue Minardi, and won. And finished very highly when he wasn't winning.

I think he's just unlucky this year, and also some of his inexperience is starting to show, because he seems to be like a puppy that can't contain it's excitement and pees because of it. Soon this will come naturally to him. But his results in my opinion are better than any Schumacher, Senna and Hamilton. And really his qualifying is absolutely impressive.

Once he gets the right machinery, and a level head, I can see him winning 12 out of 13 GPs like Schumacher in '04.

People on this site accuse me of having an unusual love for Vettel - but I cannot fathom why everyone is quick to dismiss him. He can overtake, this Red Bull just doesn't allow him to. Driving in the Torro Rosso - I'm sure he definitely learned how to overtake. :nono:

So can someone explain to me, why am I wrong?


Because for every super performance like Monza '08, there is a very stupid mistake. Vettel got involved in 3 first lap incidents that year too, but i guess people tend to look back with rose tinted specs (that is not a personal comment). Even this year this is a trend - domination like Suzuka one week and utterly needless incidents like Spa and Turkey the next. Then there is all the little things that indicate he is not the complete driver by any stretch. One example would be in Bahrain this year, where he appeared to be losing way more time than he should have when his mechanical problem arose. This arguably cost him a position.

It could be argued that he still has potential and would definitely iron out these mistakes (that assumption happens quite a lot to people, it has to be said), but at the same time that is no guarantee, he could have just as easily merely reached his full potential at an earlier age, and this is already his maximum level. There is no doubting his huge speed, but that isn't a very useful tool of he can't back it up with consistency and race craft - as we are indeed witnessing this season.

What you have basically said in one part of your post is "if he becomes the best driver by miles and has the best car by miles, he'll dominate", but, erm, the same could be said of a hell of a lot of drivers...


So you think he should have placed higher than 4th after loosing a spark plug, how on earth can you prove that he shouldnt have lost so much time. I'm sorry but that statement is absolutely absurd.
User avatar
By scotty
#222618
So you think he should have placed higher than 4th after loosing a spark plug, how on earth can you prove that he shouldnt have lost so much time. I'm sorry but that statement is absolutely absurd.


His lap times improved after a few laps floundering about trying to deal with his problem. That is the period i was referring to. And you have taken my post and twisted the wording (which is absurd in itself, amusingly), i said he appeared to which he indeed did - i'm not the only person who has this view either, and this is further backed up the fact that he managed to make a marked improvement in pace.
User avatar
By nish2280
#222621
So you think he should have placed higher than 4th after loosing a spark plug, how on earth can you prove that he shouldnt have lost so much time. I'm sorry but that statement is absolutely absurd.


His lap times improved after a few laps floundering about trying to deal with his problem. That is the period i was referring to. And you have taken my post and twisted the wording (which is absurd in itself, amusingly), i said he appeared to which he indeed did - i'm not the only person who has this view either, and this is further backed up the fact that he managed to make a marked improvement in pace.


Well if you were walking a long and i suddenly came along and hit you in the leg with a baseball bat, im pretty sure you would not be able to get going again. So after he consulted the team, he probably changed the settings around and got used to acceleration points and braking points his lap times would have started improving. But stating that any other driver would have gotten over it faster is still absurd as it cant be proven.
By vaptin
#222623
So you think he should have placed higher than 4th after loosing a spark plug, how on earth can you prove that he shouldnt have lost so much time. I'm sorry but that statement is absolutely absurd.


His lap times improved after a few laps floundering about trying to deal with his problem. That is the period i was referring to. And you have taken my post and twisted the wording (which is absurd in itself, amusingly), i said he appeared to which he indeed did - i'm not the only person who has this view either, and this is further backed up the fact that he managed to make a marked improvement in pace.


Well if you were walking a long and i suddenly came along and hit you in the leg with a baseball bat, im pretty sure you would not be able to get going again. So after he consulted the team, he probably changed the settings around and got used to acceleration points and braking points his lap times would have started improving. But stating that any other driver would have gotten over it faster is still absurd as it cant be proven.


It's not absurd to say something that can't be proven, I think Vettel did over react somewhat there (compared to how other drivers would've handled it) and lost more time than if he hadn't have. Of course its all ifs and buts anyway.
User avatar
By nish2280
#222629
If you can find someone who lost a spark plug and then did not loose as much time as Vettel did then you might be right.
By Big Azza
#224612
Maybe this should be called Vettel the new Senna. :wavey:


In Vettel's 61 races he has only been able to convert his 14 pole positions into 9 wins. In Ayrton Senna's 161 Starts he converted his 65 pole positions into 41 wins.

They are similar because they are able to qualify super fast. But their race pace is a bit behind, or they have technical DNFs, or they push the car too hard and make a mistake. In my opinion, both drivers are entertaining, although Vettel loses out to Hamilton in this regard...

I think Vettel is exceptional in the rain. I would be bias in my opinion that Vettel is probably the best on the grid in the rain. His performances in the Torro Rosso, could be likened to Senna's performances in the Toleman. Have I crossed the line yet?
User avatar
By smokin
#224805
... Toleman. Have I crossed the line yet?

Two wheels are over and you're in danger of being wiped out by the oncoming truck.
#225508
I'm looking forward to seeing him win more races and maybe even more championships - Schumacher-style :wink:
User avatar
By bud
#225509
I'm looking forward to seeing him win more races and maybe even more championships - Schumacher-style :wink:


he won his first one without crashing into a main opponent, well in the last race anyway :hehe: So Seb is doing it in his own style :D
#225511
I'm looking forward to seeing him win more races and maybe even more championships - Schumacher-style :wink:


he won his first one without crashing into a main opponent, well in the last race anyway :hehe: So Seb is doing it in his own style :D

The last race alright, but the others? :P
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