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[myownalias]

Team orders exist whether we like them or not; every team does it; even the lower order teams on occasion have employed team orders. But in the case of Ferrari; they tend to blatantly flout the rules; which to me shows a complete lack of respect to the governing body and owners of Formula 1. Teams like Red Bull and McLaren tend to employ their team orders more discretely, which doesn't bring a heap of bad press towards the sport.

[spankyham]

Team orders exist whether we like them or not; every team does it; even the lower order teams on occasion have employed team orders. But in the case of Ferrari; they tend to blatantly flout the rules; which to me shows a complete lack of respect to the governing body and owners of Formula 1. Teams like Red Bull and McLaren tend to employ their team orders more discretely, which doesn't bring a heap of bad press towards the sport.

So you prefer the devious instead of the honest approach?

[bud]

Team orders exist whether we like them or not; every team does it; even the lower order teams on occasion have employed team orders. But in the case of Ferrari; they tend to blatantly flout the rules; which to me shows a complete lack of respect to the governing body and owners of Formula 1. Teams like Red Bull and McLaren tend to employ their team orders more discretely, which doesn't bring a heap of bad press towards the sport.

So you prefer the devious instead of the honest approach?

Ferrari's approach was hardly honest. They played everyone for fools after the race explaining what happened. Insisting it was not team orders.

[billindenver]

And McLaren still claim they have no team orders. It's all BS and its all caused by the FIA believing that fans are too ignorant to understand why team orders exists...so they require the teams to act as if they don't exist and to be 'subtle' when employing them. I think it's insulting to race fans, but from time to time I can see the kind of ignorance that the FIA believes we all enjoy. Like when McLaren fans rant about other teams having team orders for instance.

[myownalias]

Team orders exist whether we like them or not; every team does it; even the lower order teams on occasion have employed team orders. But in the case of Ferrari; they tend to blatantly flout the rules; which to me shows a complete lack of respect to the governing body and owners of Formula 1. Teams like Red Bull and McLaren tend to employ their team orders more discretely, which doesn't bring a heap of bad press towards the sport.

So you prefer the devious instead of the honest approach?

In a word; YES!

We all know that team orders exist and the FIA have proved ineffective yet again; it's the cynical nature that Ferrari employed team orders I don't like. I would rather not have team orders at all but I know and have known for a long time that isn't the case, at least cheating in a covert way is showing some sort of respect for the rulebook. It seems to me that Ferrari consider themselves bigger than the sport and show their disrespect by flagrantly ignoring a rule that came about because of their cynicism in the first place.

And McLaren still claim they have no team orders. It's all BS and its all caused by the FIA believing that fans are too ignorant to understand why team orders exists...so they require the teams to act as if they don't exist and to be 'subtle' when employing them. I think it's insulting to race fans, but from time to time I can see the kind of ignorance that the FIA believes we all enjoy. Like when McLaren fans rant about other teams having team orders for instance.

There are still a lot of fans out there that don't understand team orders; younger fans; fans that don't follow the background of the sport and just tune into the races and for the vast majorty; the press; general sports writers that publish each and every team order and make it a scandal. Personally I would rather see team mates racing on the track; unless of course one driver is effectively out of the title race; or even in the McLaren case; putting their eggs in one basket is the only hope of winning a title this year!

[What's Burning?]

Team orders exist whether we like them or not; every team does it; even the lower order teams on occasion have employed team orders. But in the case of Ferrari; they tend to blatantly flout the rules; which to me shows a complete lack of respect to the governing body and owners of Formula 1. Teams like Red Bull and McLaren tend to employ their team orders more discretely, which doesn't bring a heap of bad press towards the sport.

So you prefer the devious instead of the honest approach?

In a word; YES!

We all know that team orders exist and the FIA have proved ineffective yet again; it's the cynical nature that Ferrari employed team orders I don't like. I would rather not have team orders at all but I know and have known for a long time that isn't the case, at least cheating in a covert way is showing some sort of respect for the rulebook. It seems to me that Ferrari consider themselves bigger than the sport and show their disrespect by flagrantly ignoring a rule that came about because of their cynicism in the first place.

It's a marked difference between Ferrari fans, and non Ferrari fans, but you've explained it well. There's no wrong or right to this, simply a matter of preference. Honest cheating, and devious cheating are both still cheating, but in my opinion some draw a line at contempt, others excuse or accept it as part of the team culture.

[spankyham]

So you prefer the devious instead of the honest approach?

In a word; YES!

We all know that team orders exist and the FIA have proved ineffective yet again; it's the cynical nature that Ferrari employed team orders I don't like. I would rather not have team orders at all but I know and have known for a long time that isn't the case, at least cheating in a covert way is showing some sort of respect for the rulebook. It seems to me that Ferrari consider themselves bigger than the sport and show their disrespect by flagrantly ignoring a rule that came about because of their cynicism in the first place.

As far as I'm concerned it's insulting to Ferrari and their fans to call their stance on Team Orders cynical.

It's fair enough for you to dislike Team Orders. However, as most people know, Ferrari do not agree with the current team orders rule.

Ferrari have a right to oppose a rule and to work to get it changed - that's their prerogative as an active member.

It is well known that Ferrari try to do as much as they think they can, within the limits of the Team Order rule. In relation to Germany this year, Ferrari clearly described what they did and said - anyone can read the hearing and their submission (link previously provided). Ferrari said what they did and characterized what they did as team strategy. The decision went against them. Ferrari accepted the ruling and penalty.

So Ferrari push the limits, openly, against a rule they just don't believe is fair or right for F1. You call that cynical, I call it honest, by anyone standards its open.

You think it's better for teams to break rules in a clandestine way. That is respectful? So break rules but get good at hiding it. No need to police, judge or punish that. I'm sure there would be a lot of criminals that would subscribe to that system.

[f1ea]

change for softs.... get an extra pit stop, for more softs...

not sure that he would have been able to build a 20+ second lead in the laps he had left to make a 2 stop work.

Not to the leaders, but certainly to everyone behind... and by going to the pits early (or at the same time as everyone else, jenson had the chance to come out who knows, in front of any other team/driver and hold him back or build a gap and do a little gamble (something like Webber did in Hungary) til the end.

i'm not saying Mclaren had much to do to get Jenson to win the race, but they did go through a little ordeal, to still bring Jenson behind Lewis. Makes no sense. Correction: Makes no INDIVIDUAL sense. It makes perfect sense in the view of the team. Which is what they did. And i think that was the best strategy they had, for the benefit of the team.

Team orders exist whether we like them or not; every team does it; even the lower order teams on occasion have employed team orders. But in the case of Ferrari; they tend to blatantly flout the rules; which to me shows a complete lack of respect to the governing body and owners of Formula 1. Teams like Red Bull and McLaren tend to employ their team orders more discretely, which doesn't bring a heap of bad press towards the sport.

What ferrari did in Hockenheim was UGLY. I admit. I'd hate it if every race had to be like that.
But the rule mentions nothing about uglyness. And Ferrari's defense was, that what they did was exactly what lots of people do... prettier or no... to no big deal or punishment.

[What's Burning?]

So Ferrari push the limits, openly, against a rule they just don't believe is fair or right for F1. You call that cynical, I call it honest, by anyone standards its open.

You think it's better for teams to break rules in a clandestine way. That is respectful? So break rules but get good at hiding it. No need to police, judge or punish that. I'm sure there would be a lot of criminals that would subscribe to that system.

Ironically they broke a rule that was instated after Ferrari so flagrantly broke the previous rule... see a pattern?

My preference is for NO team rules. That being said and knowing how much gray area there is and how the rule in various degrees will and has been broken by all teams, my preference is for a clearly defined rule set that makes sense to the teams as a business, knowing they want to win and it's in their financial best interest to do so, but also not to have the clear contempt for the fans that Ferrari showed.

You call it honesty, I call it contempt. We'll always disagree on that. If you don't like the rule, you change the rule through an official means, not by thug or mafioso tactics.

As far as your crime analogy, you have drug trafficking in Mexico, and drug trafficking in Amsterdam. Which one would you rather have?

[vaptin]

Team orders exist whether we like them or not; every team does it; even the lower order teams on occasion have employed team orders. But in the case of Ferrari; they tend to blatantly flout the rules; which to me shows a complete lack of respect to the governing body and owners of Formula 1. Teams like Red Bull and McLaren tend to employ their team orders more discretely, which doesn't bring a heap of bad press towards the sport.

It wasn't obvious on purpose, it was obvious because Massa was pissed and Rob was sympathetic to him,

[darwin dali]

So Ferrari push the limits, openly, against a rule they just don't believe is fair or right for F1. You call that cynical, I call it honest, by anyone standards its open.

You think it's better for teams to break rules in a clandestine way. That is respectful? So break rules but get good at hiding it. No need to police, judge or punish that. I'm sure there would be a lot of criminals that would subscribe to that system.

Ironically they broke a rule that was instated after Ferrari so flagrantly broke the previous rule... see a pattern?

My preference is for NO team rules. That being said and knowing how much gray area there is and how the rule in various degrees will and has been broken by all teams, my preference is for a clearly defined rule set that makes sense to the teams as a business, knowing they want to win and it's in their financial best interest to do so, but also not to have the clear contempt for the fans that Ferrari showed.

You call it honesty, I call it contempt. We'll always disagree on that. If you don't like the rule, you change the rule through an official means, not by thug or mafioso tactics.

As far as your crime analogy, you have drug trafficking in Mexico, and drug trafficking in Amsterdam. Which one would you rather have?

Drug trafficking in NY.

[f1ea]

It wasn't obvious on purpose, it was obvious because Massa was pissed and Rob was sympathetic to him,

yup.
imagine if Jenson had decided to make fuss about it. Being his fault or not... just if he had chosen to make an issue... it would have been as ulgy as the ferrari issue.

[vaptin]

So Ferrari push the limits, openly, against a rule they just don't believe is fair or right for F1. You call that cynical, I call it honest, by anyone standards its open.

You think it's better for teams to break rules in a clandestine way. That is respectful? So break rules but get good at hiding it. No need to police, judge or punish that. I'm sure there would be a lot of criminals that would subscribe to that system.

Ironically they broke a rule that was instated after Ferrari so flagrantly broke the previous rule... see a pattern?

My preference is for NO team rules. That being said and knowing how much gray area there is and how the rule in various degrees will and has been broken by all teams, my preference is for a clearly defined rule set that makes sense to the teams as a business, knowing they want to win and it's in their financial best interest to do so, but also not to have the clear contempt for the fans that Ferrari showed.

You call it honesty, I call it contempt. We'll always disagree on that. If you don't like the rule, you change the rule through an official means, not by thug or mafioso tactics.

As far as your crime analogy, you have drug trafficking in Mexico, and drug trafficking in Amsterdam. Which one would you rather have?

It's only the aesthetics that change, that doesn't matter to the wording of the rules in this case, and you'd look like a fool writing a rule where you ask "please don't make it obvious", oh damn, thats what we had since 01 until Ferrari blew it out of the water.

[What's Burning?]

Miami.

[What's Burning?]

So Ferrari push the limits, openly, against a rule they just don't believe is fair or right for F1. You call that cynical, I call it honest, by anyone standards its open.

You think it's better for teams to break rules in a clandestine way. That is respectful? So break rules but get good at hiding it. No need to police, judge or punish that. I'm sure there would be a lot of criminals that would subscribe to that system.

Ironically they broke a rule that was instated after Ferrari so flagrantly broke the previous rule... see a pattern?

My preference is for NO team rules. That being said and knowing how much gray area there is and how the rule in various degrees will and has been broken by all teams, my preference is for a clearly defined rule set that makes sense to the teams as a business, knowing they want to win and it's in their financial best interest to do so, but also not to have the clear contempt for the fans that Ferrari showed.

You call it honesty, I call it contempt. We'll always disagree on that. If you don't like the rule, you change the rule through an official means, not by thug or mafioso tactics.

As far as your crime analogy, you have drug trafficking in Mexico, and drug trafficking in Amsterdam. Which one would you rather have?

It's only the aesthetics that change, that doesn't matter to the wording of the rules in this case, and you'd look like a fool writing a rule where you ask "please don't make it obvious", oh damn, thats what we had since 01 until Ferrari blew it out of the water.

So it's worked fine since then until Ferrari had to go an get all contemptuous on us the fans?... Erm, I mean honest.