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[Hansy]

The title should be changed to 'Race Car Unreliability'. When the envelope is pushed, it sometimes rips. That's just the nature of the racing beast even in spec class racing. Things break. If the car breaks more often than ones rivals, perhaps it was under engineered or the driver is unnecessarily rough on it. Taking curbs, rubbing rivals etc all put stress on carbon fiber suspension and chassis components. Bumping wheels, hitting walls, spins...puts stress on gear boxes.

It doesn't seem to me that the McLarens have been any less reliable than their competition. The drivers have been less reliable than their competitors perhaps, but that can't be blamed on the team. Button...I just can't figure that guy out. Sometimes he is blazing fast, other times its like he can't find the throttle with a seeing eye dog and a search/rescue team. Lewis...he can drive...beyond the limits of the car, tires and common sense. He isn't as mistake prone as his first two years though, so he is getting better. But, when the pressure mounts....he still breaks under it. He absolutely gave this season away...again.

The season isn't over though. Vettel can still take out his teammate again. Webber and Alonso could have an epic battle that comes to tears. 75 pts to play for....plenty of room for any of the top 5 to make a move.

Alonso and Vettel have made more points costing errors than the rest of the top 5. Jenson the least.

Actually I can't remember any mistakes from Jenson. He had the failure in Monaco, and Vettel taking him out in Spa, everyone else has at least 1 DNF exclusively by their own fault. Vettel on Turkey, Webber in Valencia, Alonso in Spa and Hamilton in Monza. If he was as fast as the other guys he'd be a serious threat, his consistency and strategy calls are what keeps him in the game. After reading what it's being said about possible tyre problems at Korea, it would be wicked cool if Button wins there

[vaptin]

I can't remember any obvious mistakes from Jenson either (excluding just not being fast enough), I suppose you could say his strategy in Suzuka was a mistake?

[racechick]

Jenson hasnt made any point losing errors unless you count poor quali, which isnt really an error. He went off the track in Melborne but still won.

Alonso has made the most point costing errors, five of them costing him about 50 points.
China jump start-could have won- cost 13points

Monaco crash -had race winning speed-cost 18points

Canada-caught out by backmarker letButton past-cost 3 points

Silverstone-passed RK with all four wheels off the track and didnt give place back-could have finished 4th-cost 12points

Spa crashed out- cost 4 points

total 50

Vettel
Turkey-crashed into Mark, could have won but at least 2nd-cost 18 points

Silverstone-wouldnt cede to Webberleft himself vulnerable and cut his tyre-could have got 2nd-cost 12 points

Hungary-Dropped too far behind safety car, would have won-cost 10points

Spa-crashed in to Button-cost 18points

Total-58

Webber
Australia-error on lap 56, collected Hamilton- cost 6

European- Heikki incident-cost 2points

Total-8 points

Hamilton

Monza-error at start clash with Massa-could have finished 3rd or 4th-cost 18 points

Total 18 points.

This doesnt take account of DNF's due to car failures or loss of points due to someone elses accident/error/ misjudgement.And it doesnt count mistakes that havent caused a points loss.
Its interesting how much better Webber has faired than the rest and how many more mistakes Alonso has made(albeit not as expensive as Vettels mistakes)

Jensons made non but maybe he's a little too cautious and thats why despite his lack of mistakes he's lying 5th of the contenders.

[darwin dali]

No risk - no gain, I suppose

[scotty]

Way to exaggerate Alonso and Vettel's losses just cause you don't like 'em!!

[vaptin]

Come on , how did you know Alonso had race winning pace in Monaco?

Hamilton's crash in practice in Japan which got him a gearbox penalty doesn't count?

Can't remember Canada too well but the back-marker problem was Alonso's fault? Not only the fact that McLaren had a faster car anyway. . .

List doesn't do much anyway, look at Jenson, he braked way too early in the start at Singapore but Lewis retired anyway so no harm done, Alonso's drive through penalty for Kubica was just after a safety car, not too sure he was going to finish 4th there anyway?

[racechick]

Way to exaggerate Alonso and Vettel's losses just cause you don't like 'em!!

No. It wasnt my list. I paraphrased it.

[racechick]

Come on , how did you know Alonso had race winning pace in Monaco?

Hamilton's crash in practice in Japan which got him a gearbox penalty doesn't count?

Can't remember Canada too well but the back-marker problem was Alonso's fault? Not only the fact that McLaren had a faster car anyway. . .

List doesn't do much anyway, look at Jenson, he braked way too early in the start at Singapore but Lewis retired anyway so no harm done, Alonso's drive through penalty for Kubica was just after a safety car, not too sure he was going to finish 4th there anyway?

Alonso's Monaco pace was very good before the crash but i only took off 18 points , take off less points if you dont think he'd have done that well.

It was the Webber clash that got Hamilton the gearbox penalty,wasnt it?

Jensons early braking wasnt a point scoring error as you said which is why it wasnt included.

Of course the points deductions areonly approximations, who know what else would have happeneed in the races

[nish2280]

Way to exaggerate Alonso and Vettel's losses just cause you don't like 'em!!

No. It wasnt my list. I paraphrased it.

Link?

[vaptin]

Come on , how did you know Alonso had race winning pace in Monaco?

Hamilton's crash in practice in Japan which got him a gearbox penalty doesn't count?

Can't remember Canada too well but the back-marker problem was Alonso's fault? Not only the fact that McLaren had a faster car anyway. . .


It was the Webber clash that got Hamilton the gearbox penalty,wasnt it?

Not sure, I thought it was his crash in practice.

(Alonso in Monaco) he got 8 points, I think its fair to place him in third behind the Redbulls, this was back when they kept masking their pace in practice right up until q3 anyway, thats 7 points dropped I'd say.

Of course we're looking at drivers here anyway, its a team game, the driver can't do anything without the car, do you fancy doing one estimating how much each team has dropped? Much bigger task though. Would be an interesting picture and bring us closer to ontopic as well.

[scotty]

Way to exaggerate Alonso and Vettel's losses just cause you don't like 'em!!

No. It wasnt my list. I paraphrased it.

Then my post is applicable to whoever you've gotten that suspect list from, cause it totally smacks of bias and is nowhere near comprehensive enough to base a reasonable judgement on.

Listing Silverstone and Hungary as purely being driver errors for Vettel is so mind numbingly ridiculous, there was clearly an element of luck in play. I mean, that safety car thing was pretty damn harsh for example (not that i was complaining), i've seen other drivers fall back a fair way with nothing happen to them. And how many times have we seen that anything can happen at the first corner? As for listing Canada as an incident whereby Alonso just lost himself points, come on... as Vaptin said the McLaren was really the class of the field anyway, he'd put in a brilliant drive to even get past Hamilton for the lead at one point. Judging by that guy's criteria then the crash in Singapore must be explicitly Hamilton's fault too. But it wasn't - luck of the draw, once again.

I think it is also wrong to discount qualifying mistakes, especially if you compare the severity and knock effect that some of those mistakes have actually had to some of the mistakes listed there. For me, a large part of the reason Button isn't more in the fight is because of qualifying - again, Hungary and Silverstone spring to mind. You can't really call him cautious given the huge risk he took in Suzuka.

[racechick]

Way to exaggerate Alonso and Vettel's losses just cause you don't like 'em!!

No. It wasnt my list. I paraphrased it.

Then my post is applicable to whoever you've gotten that suspect list from, cause it totally smacks of bias and is nowhere near comprehensive enough to base a reasonable judgement on.

Listing Silverstone and Hungary as purely being driver errors for Vettel is so mind numbingly ridiculous, there was clearly an element of luck in play. I mean, that safety car thing was pretty damn harsh for example (not that i was complaining), i've seen other drivers fall back a fair way with nothing happen to them. And how many times have we seen that anything can happen at the first corner? As for listing Canada as an incident whereby Alonso just lost himself points, come on... as Vaptin said the McLaren was really the class of the field anyway, he'd put in a brilliant drive to even get past Hamilton for the lead at one point. Judging by that guy's criteria then the crash in Singapore must be explicitly Hamilton's fault too. But it wasn't - luck of the draw, once again.

I think it is also wrong to discount qualifying mistakes, especially if you compare the severity and knock effect that some of those mistakes have actually had to some of the mistakes listed there. For me, a large part of the reason Button isn't more in the fight is because of qualifying - again, Hungary and Silverstone spring to mind. You can't really call him cautious given the huge risk he took in Suzuka.

I wasnt aware I had discounted qualifying errors? Thats what Alonso's Monaco one was (well pre quali but same principal). It was any error that cost points over the weekend, not just the race.

The guy who wrote the article was Edd Straw.It was a long article looking at errors generally and how theyd shaped the championship and also whether they any more frequent than other years.
You dont have to agree with it. I thought it was interesting.

[billindenver]

Thank god I don't have to agree with it, since it's completely ridiculous.

Scotty is on the money here. A more biased and outright silly list is impossible to imagine. Lewis turns in on a car at the apex and it's the apex cars fault? Practice crash isn't his fault either (the team must have screwed him...because they secretly back Jenson). Seriously, even paraphrasing I would be embarrassed to type that out.

News Flash! Lewis runs perfect season despite team, teammate and every other driver conspiring to make him look bad! Senna wakes from dead to ask for his autograph. Ferrari offer him 1 billion to apply his perfection to their chassis next year, but the perfect one decides to remain at McLaren despite their plot to deprive him of yet another championship with their mistakes and ill will. Jenson weeps for his master. Internet flame, Racechick, vows to have his child through immaculate conception.

[texasmr2]

[spankyham]

Thank god I don't have to agree with it, since it's completely ridiculous.

Scotty is on the money here. A more biased and outright silly list is impossible to imagine. Lewis turns in on a car at the apex and it's the apex cars fault? Practice crash isn't his fault either (the team must have screwed him...because they secretly back Jenson). Seriously, even paraphrasing I would be embarrassed to type that out.

News Flash! Lewis runs perfect season despite team, teammate and every other driver conspiring to make him look bad! Senna wakes from dead to ask for his autograph. Ferrari offer him 1 billion to apply his perfection to their chassis next year, but the perfect one decides to remain at McLaren despite their plot to deprive him of yet another championship with their mistakes and ill will. Jenson weeps for his master. Internet flame, Racechick, vows to have his child through immaculate conception.

Now that is harsh ...... funny but harsh