FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[The_Stig_Money]

Why is it so hard for the McLaren brigade to believe that team orders are in place within their team? Ferrari are atleast open and upfront about having them for Alonso, reality check, "testi's testi's is thing on?"

If Hamiltons bad luck continues there priority will swing towards Button.

I dont see a problem with helping a driver as long as they have the highest potential for winning the WDC. (Ferrari, McLaren or any team)

[bud]

I haven't downloaded the BBC coverage yet, but I accept that you were quoting Brundle regarding the tyres put on Jenson's car.
BUT, if you read the comments from the man himself, they don't sound like someone who was either committed to, or happy with his starting tyres.

Doesnt sound committed? where did he blame the team for making him start on them? As is what you obviously think! He is upset because he expected more and again, maybe take your anti McLaren hat off before reading into things.

[spankyham]

I haven't downloaded the BBC coverage yet, but I accept that you were quoting Brundle regarding the tyres put on Jenson's car.
BUT, if you read the comments from the man himself, they don't sound like someone who was either committed to, or happy with his starting tyres.

Doesnt sound committed? where did he blame the team for making him start on them? As is what you obviously think! He is upset because he expected more and again, maybe take your anti McLaren hat off before reading into things.

I'm not anti-McLaren! I'm in favour of team orders. If I'm right, and McLaren are following team orders, I support it. It's their team, they pay the bills, my global view is that playing a part as a team member is an horourable thing for any team member to do. In basketball they actually count the number of "assists" a player does. I count them in F1 as well and praise any driver who can help his team that way. For me, I praise team orders!

OK, now, back to the issue:-
Here are the words that make me feel that Jenson didn't want to start on primes and that it wasn't his decision:-
JB: ".... we are in the fight for the championship and then you should cover the people that you are racing .... "
He felt they should cover the other 4 he was racing against - he says it clear as day, to do that, he would have to be on option tyres not primes. This is crystal clear to me mate.

"We didn’t do that."
Again he is directly questioning the decision to put him on primes.

"At the end of the race we put the options on and I had a lot of grip and the car was very fast."
He is clearly saying he would have been even faster at the start on option tyres. From the very start he was faster than Lewis on primes (he beat him on all the first 3 racing laps and beat him 7 out of the 10 first racing laps), so he would have been even faster still on options!

[bud]

You totally ignore the facts i put forward to make your own petty assumptions look pretty. What ever whats the point in even talking to you? None!

Whitmarsh: Button tactic best for race

By Jonathan Noble Sunday, October 10th 2010, 03:11 GMT

McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh believes Jenson Button is in good shape for the Japanese Grand Prix after opting for prime tyres in qualifying, even though he is only starting in fifth place.

The reigning world champion decided to play the long game by not using the option tyres for Sunday morning's qualifying session, and it is a strategy that Whitmarsh thinks can lift Button up the field in the race.

"He is in a very strong position and he did a fantastic job," Whitmarsh told AUTOSPORT. "He was involved in making that call and I think the option tyre is going to struggle a little bit this afternoon, so to be up there near the front with the prime tyre I think you are in a good shape. It was the right thing for him to do.

"We have got the second quickest car, and without that pace we could not have contemplated being on the prime tyre. The prime tyre is clearly the slower tyre over one lap but it will be the strongest race tyre.

"We know how good Jenson is at looking after his tyres and running smoothly, and he will be setting out to really run long into this race, that is not a secret, and hopefully if we get a little bit of luck go our way this weekend, we will be able to exploit that and it will be a good strategy."

Although Button ultimately sacrificed around two tenths of a second of qualifying pace by being fuelled for a multi-lap run in Q3, which was the difference between his final time and that of the cars immediately ahead of him, Whitmarsh reckons it would have been too much of a gamble to expect him to deliver his best on a single-lap run.

"The first thing we all said was if we had gone for one lap on the prime with Jenson we could have been up closer to the front," explained Whitmarsh. "It would have been a very brave thing to do to do one lap on the prime, but that is the normal racing mentality.

"Jenson did his best time on his first lap and still had two laps of fuel, so could have been up there in front of Alonso... so that is a shame."

[spankyham]

You totally ignore the facts i put forward to make your own petty assumptions look pretty. What ever whats the point in even talking to you? None!

Whitmarsh: Button tactic best for race

By Jonathan Noble Sunday, October 10th 2010, 03:11 GMT

McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh believes Jenson Button is in good shape for the Japanese Grand Prix after opting for prime tyres in qualifying, even though he is only starting in fifth place.

The reigning world champion decided to play the long game by not using the option tyres for Sunday morning's qualifying session, and it is a strategy that Whitmarsh thinks can lift Button up the field in the race.

"He is in a very strong position and he did a fantastic job," Whitmarsh told AUTOSPORT. "He was involved in making that call and I think the option tyre is going to struggle a little bit this afternoon, so to be up there near the front with the prime tyre I think you are in a good shape. It was the right thing for him to do.

"We have got the second quickest car, and without that pace we could not have contemplated being on the prime tyre. The prime tyre is clearly the slower tyre over one lap but it will be the strongest race tyre.

"We know how good Jenson is at looking after his tyres and running smoothly, and he will be setting out to really run long into this race, that is not a secret, and hopefully if we get a little bit of luck go our way this weekend, we will be able to exploit that and it will be a good strategy."

Although Button ultimately sacrificed around two tenths of a second of qualifying pace by being fuelled for a multi-lap run in Q3, which was the difference between his final time and that of the cars immediately ahead of him, Whitmarsh reckons it would have been too much of a gamble to expect him to deliver his best on a single-lap run.

"The first thing we all said was if we had gone for one lap on the prime with Jenson we could have been up closer to the front," explained Whitmarsh. "It would have been a very brave thing to do to do one lap on the prime, but that is the normal racing mentality.

"Jenson did his best time on his first lap and still had two laps of fuel, so could have been up there in front of Alonso... so that is a shame."

How could I possibly ignore anything you say, you have such an adept way of grabbing my attention. OK, we might not agree, but that's ok by me, I do appreciate where you're coming from. I don't want to "change" your point of view, but, it would be good if I could explain myself well enough so you to could understand my position.

Thanks for posting the article above. It is clear from that Martin Whitmarsh's view is different to Jenson's view. Martin seemed convinced that starting on the prime was a good move for Jenson. Jenson's comments (as per the interview I quoted earlier) are clearly questioning him starting on the primes'.

I think we agree, and hindsight has proven, that Jenson was right to question being put on primes.

I guess my question to Martin would be this - "If you were so convinced that starting Jenson on Primes was the right choice, why didn't you start Lewis on primes also?"

[bud]

Thanks for posting the article above. It is clear from that Martin Whitmarsh's view is different to Jenson's view. Martin seemed convinced that starting on the prime was a good move for Jenson. Jenson's comments (as per the interview I quoted earlier) are clearly questioning him starting on the primes'.

Firstly the article is after Qualifying not post race. The article you posted was post race and Jensons frustrations are highlighting the length he was out on the primes not the fact he started on them. Simple matter of fact because he had a say in starting on them! As he has wanted to start on them in previous races!

I guess my question to Martin would be this - "If you were so convinced that starting Jenson on Primes was the right choice, why didn't you start Lewis on primes also?"

Maybe because Lewis didnt want to like Jenson did? Maybe because the Option was faster over one lap and Lewis knowing he was getting +5 grid penalty needed to get the highest position possible. As Brundle said during Qualifying, this isnt the first time Jenson has wanted to start on the primes when others were on the option. Thats Jenson he likes to take some clever gambles that pay off sometimes and dont at others.


End of the day to suggest they did Jensons tyre strategy for the sake of Lewis is proving wrong by the simple fact Jenson held Lewis up in Lewis' option stint.
If they were all for a predetermined team plan on helping Lewis then surely Jenson would have let Lewis through? The fact he didnt ruined Lewis' race (prior to getting mechanical issues) but thats because there was no plan.

[f1ea]

End of the day to suggest they did Jensons tyre strategy for the sake of Lewis is proving wrong by the simple fact Jenson held Lewis up in Lewis' option stint.

i still dont get this bit... when did Jenson hold Lewis up???
far as i remember, Jenson was holding the Red Bulls (which allowed Lewis and Fernando to catch up a bit) until he changed to the soft tyre...

[Hammer278]

From the start of the season, Jenson has always done something different to what Lewis does. He knows its his best chance of beating his teammate, by taking calculated gambles and it's worked wonders for him at the start of the season! Monza, again they had constrasting setups.

When Jensons strategy works for him, people say Lewis has to be more 'intelligent' to get good results. Why won't people say "The team made Lewis do it" at those times?? Because they didn't.

Some strategical decisions work, some DON'T. THIS time around it didn't work for Jenson, and it is pathetic for people to point to team orders - when in the SAME race Jenson destroyed Lewis' 1st half of the race by slowing him down and then overtaking him when he had the gearbox issue! If the team really were in support for Lewis, they had all the right to tell Jenson to let Lewis go as Jenson was destroying his strategy.

[myownalias]

End of the day to suggest they did Jensons tyre strategy for the sake of Lewis is proving wrong by the simple fact Jenson held Lewis up in Lewis' option stint.

i still dont get this bit... when did Jenson hold Lewis up???
far as i remember, Jenson was holding the Red Bulls (which allowed Lewis and Fernando to catch up a bit) until he changed to the soft tyre...

Lewis got the jump on two cars off the start and was soon on Jenson's gearbox but couldn't get past because of the dirty air (supposedly), once Lewis pitted and got into some clear air; he showed how much fast he was; even of the harder compound. But again I say; if a driver is that good why doesn't he just overtake; it can be done; just look at Kobayashi, he was overtaking left, right and centre; or has Lewis become overtake shy because of his recent collisions?

[Hammer278]

End of the day to suggest they did Jensons tyre strategy for the sake of Lewis is proving wrong by the simple fact Jenson held Lewis up in Lewis' option stint.

i still dont get this bit... when did Jenson hold Lewis up???
far as i remember, Jenson was holding the Red Bulls (which allowed Lewis and Fernando to catch up a bit) until he changed to the soft tyre...

Lewis got the jump on two cars off the start and was soon on Jenson's gearbox but couldn't get past because of the dirty air (supposedly), once Lewis pitted and got into some clear air; he showed how much fast he was; even of the harder compound. But again I say; if a driver is that good why doesn't he just overtake; it can be done; just look at Kobayashi, he was overtaking left, right and centre; or has Lewis become overtake shy because of his recent collisions?

Maybe because he had his teammate in front of him and both cars are more evenly matched, compared to Kobayashi and the cars he was racing with?

[Hammer278]

End of the day to suggest they did Jensons tyre strategy for the sake of Lewis is proving wrong by the simple fact Jenson held Lewis up in Lewis' option stint.

i still dont get this bit... when did Jenson hold Lewis up???
far as i remember, Jenson was holding the Red Bulls (which allowed Lewis and Fernando to catch up a bit) until he changed to the soft tyre...

Let me guess, when the camera isn't focused on a Ferrari, you aren't watching the race anymore.

[spankyham]

Thanks for posting the article above. It is clear from that Martin Whitmarsh's view is different to Jenson's view. Martin seemed convinced that starting on the prime was a good move for Jenson. Jenson's comments (as per the interview I quoted earlier) are clearly questioning him starting on the primes'.

Firstly the article is after Qualifying not post race. The article you posted was post race and Jensons frustrations are highlighting the length he was out on the primes not the fact he started on them. Simple matter of fact because he had a say in starting on them! As he has wanted to start on them in previous races!

I can't agree with your assessment that Jenson was either part of the decision to go out on primes or that, prior to the race start he agreed with that decision. The reason I think this is because of these words from Jenson:-
".... we are in the fight for the championship and then you should cover the people that you are racing .... "
This is a very clear statement that he should have started on option tyres "to cover" the ones he felt he was competing with for the WDC.
And he goes on to mention this again when he says:-
"We didn’t do that."
For me, these are not the words of someone happy to be on option tyres at the start of the race.

I guess my question to Martin would be this - "If you were so convinced that starting Jenson on Primes was the right choice, why didn't you start Lewis on primes also?"

Maybe because Lewis didnt want to like Jenson did? Maybe because the Option was faster over one lap and Lewis knowing he was getting +5 grid penalty needed to get the highest position possible. As Brundle said during Qualifying, this isnt the first time Jenson has wanted to start on the primes when others were on the option. Thats Jenson he likes to take some clever gambles that pay off sometimes and dont at others.

End of the day to suggest they did Jensons tyre strategy for the sake of Lewis is proving wrong by the simple fact Jenson held Lewis up in Lewis' option stint.
If they were all for a predetermined team plan on helping Lewis then surely Jenson would have let Lewis through? The fact he didnt ruined Lewis' race (prior to getting mechanical issues) but thats because there was no plan.

The idea was for Jenson to be able to control the race pace (act as a legitimate blocker), on options he could stay out longer, and would have to inherit the lead (which he did). I've provided a link, in an earlier post, where Christian Horner also believes this was McLarens plan.

The plan seemed reasonable, except for two problems:-
1) The first problem was that Lewis, on options, should have been able to catch and pass Jenson. But in fact it was the opposite. Jenson, even on the prime was "faster" than Lewis. He pulled away from Lewis! An amazing effort by Jenson. The facts are than Jenson was faster than Lewis for all of the first three racing laps and he was faster than Lewis for 7 out of the first 10 racing laps. Jenson is making a statement.

2) the second problem was the gearbox failure on Lewis's car.

[f1ea]

From the start of the season, Jenson has always done something different to what Lewis does. He knows its his best chance of beating his teammate, by taking calculated gambles and it's worked wonders for him at the start of the season! Monza, again they had constrasting setups.

When Jensons strategy works for him, people say Lewis has to be more 'intelligent' to get good results. Why won't people say "The team made Lewis do it" at those times?? Because they didn't.

Some strategical decisions work, some DON'T. THIS time around it didn't work for Jenson, and it is pathetic for people to point to team orders - when in the SAME race Jenson destroyed Lewis' 1st half of the race by slowing him down and then overtaking him when he had the gearbox issue! If the team really were in support for Lewis, they had all the right to tell Jenson to let Lewis go as Jenson was destroying his strategy.

wow... i agree!
noooooooooooooo!!!!

[myownalias]

End of the day to suggest they did Jensons tyre strategy for the sake of Lewis is proving wrong by the simple fact Jenson held Lewis up in Lewis' option stint.

i still dont get this bit... when did Jenson hold Lewis up???
far as i remember, Jenson was holding the Red Bulls (which allowed Lewis and Fernando to catch up a bit) until he changed to the soft tyre...

Lewis got the jump on two cars off the start and was soon on Jenson's gearbox but couldn't get past because of the dirty air (supposedly), once Lewis pitted and got into some clear air; he showed how much fast he was; even of the harder compound. But again I say; if a driver is that good why doesn't he just overtake; it can be done; just look at Kobayashi, he was overtaking left, right and centre; or has Lewis become overtake shy because of his recent collisions?

Maybe because he had his teammate in front of him and both cars are more evenly matched, compared to Kobayashi and the cars he was racing with?

Ah but you forget that Kobayashi overtook his team mate in the closing stages in very similar circumstances; being on the soft tyres while he team mate was on the hard tyre.

[Hammer278]

That was near the end of the race...one guy on bad tyres, another on a good set. Lewis had Button holding him up when both tyres were in good order, albeit 1 car had more grip. It doesn't aid enough to overtake though, when horsepower, braking distance is the same for both cars.

Edited: Innacurate info earlier.