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[spankyham]

I'm still of the view that team orders still exist in McLaren for Jenson to move over for Lewis.

Why wasn't Lewis let past by Jenson - simply because he wasn't there to let him past. Jenson was faster than Lewis at the start of the race. It surprised me, and probably a few others, but Jenson, even on hard tyres was faster than Lewis. He was fastest for 7 of the first 10 laps after the SC came in and he was fastest for the first 3 laps after the SC.

I also surmise that the command was clearly given over the radio that Jenson was to move over if Lewis was on his tail. Obviously they can't use the old "fuel" lines anymore. This has been replaced with "brake temperature" lines. As soon as I heard the McLaren pit talking about brake temperatures being too high (while following the SC ) I recognized it as the new coded team order. (Imagine how overheated those brakes must have been at race pace )

It was intelligent by Jenson to make sure he gapped Lewis so he didn't actually have to move over and I was surprised that Lewis, on the new soft tyre couldn't match Jenson on the primes.

This is just my opinion. You asked me so I gave it. And, for the record, I don't see anything wrong with it.

[bud]

I'm still of the view that team orders still exist in McLaren for Jenson to move over for Lewis.

I recognized it as the new coded team order.

Emoticons are all the response needed here.

[spankyham]

I'm still of the view that team orders still exist in McLaren for Jenson to move over for Lewis.

Not quite sure what you mean here, perhaps its that I'm not entitled to have an opinion? In any case ..... ouch!

I recognized it as the new coded team order.

Is that it? You really think McLaren brakes were overheating being used at SC pace?

Emoticons are all the response needed here.

So this sentence wasn't needed

[bud]

Is that it? You really think McLaren brakes were overheating being used at SC pace?

Gee Spanky you seem to know more about McLaren cars than the professionals on the job! Firstly You obviously dont know a lot as what do you think the drivers are doing behind the SC? keep up their temperatures of......... A. Tyres B. Brakes!
I dunno what coverage you watched but Brundle explained it quite easily what was going on, on the McLarens brakes.
And for your stupid conspiracy theory, Lewis and Jenson both were messaging in about vibrations of the brakes which funnily enough Jenson and Lewis cant speak to each other during the race. SO get over your coded BS in yet another attempt to point fire towards McLaren and away from the blatant coding used at your own team! Which you keep saying is OK...

So this sentence wasn't needed

Technically no, but you have to explain your actions around here or else if you post with just emoticons people get flustered.

[spankyham]

Is that it? You really think McLaren brakes were overheating being used at SC pace?

Gee Spanky you seem to know more about McLaren cars than the professionals on the job! Firstly You obviously dont know a lot as what do you think the drivers are doing behind the SC? keep up their temperatures of......... A. Tyres B. Brakes!
I dunno what coverage you watched but Brundle explained it quite easily what was going on, on the McLarens brakes.
And for your stupid conspiracy theory, Lewis and Jenson both were messaging in about vibrations of the brakes which funnily enough Jenson and Lewis cant speak to each other during the race. SO get over your coded BS in yet another attempt to point fire towards McLaren and away from the blatant coding used at your own team! Which you keep saying is OK...

Eeks, ouch, ooo, ouch

As I said, it is my opinion, which I was asked to give. We just don't agree, which is also ok by me.

For my part, I don't believe that drivers of the experience of Lewis and Jenson (or for that matter any F1 driver on the grid) need to be told how to temperature their tyres and brakes behind a safety car.

Also, I would calmly point out to you that it's not "fire" that I'm pointing at McLaren, because, as you've acknowledged, I believe team orders are a good thing.

Lastly, I noticed that Racechick did ask a very specific question at the end of her post which, although I answered indirectly, I didn't really address directly - so here goes.

The reason McLaren/Lewis (quite rightly) let Jenson through without putting up any resistance was because, at that time, they new they had a serious gearbox problem, they had lost a gear completely and Lewis was reporting bad noises. Given these circumstances, you would assume the gearbox is likely to fail. Therefore, why risk letting 2 cars (not one because at that stage it was Nico and Micheal) who were close enough to be potential threats especially as Lewis had already slowed by more than 2 seconds a lap. With that rate of slow down, it would have put both Mercedes in striking distance of both McLarens before the end of the race. It was therefore smart to keep Jenson clear of any danger and hope that Lewis could make it to the finish. It's exactly the decisions I would have made given the same situation

[bud]

There were no team orders involved, Jenson was faster than Lewis because Jenson was on the option and Lewis was his missing 3rd gear.

Lewis didnt put up a fight because it was pointless. Its not hard to fathom this is it?

[spankyham]

There were no team orders involved, Jenson was faster than Lewis because Jenson was on the option and Lewis was his missing 3rd gear.

Lewis didnt put up a fight because it was pointless. Its not hard to fathom this is it?

No need to bang your head. I understand your point, and, as I said in my previous post, I accept that you can think that.

You need to accept that I believe what I have put forward.

These are both our opinions, and, unless we were at every team meeting, discussion as well as in the McLaren pit and listening to all their team radio neither of us will ever know the exact facts.

Incidentally, the link below is from Christian Horner who describes McLaren as making Jenson a sacrificial lamb before the start of the race.
https://www.f1sa.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=25479:f1--horner-mclaren-formula-1-team-used-jenson-button-as-sacrificial-lamb&catid=1:f1&Itemid=157

[bud]

You're unbelievable, you sound exactly like my mates, Funnily enough are also Italian/Ferrari fans... Must be something going on there you all think the same


So youre saying bascially that Lewis who was 2 seconds a lap slower than Jenson and didnt know if he would last the race let alone the next corner should have put up a fight? And im interested to know how on the fly Jenson and Lewis worked out together that Lewis wasnt going to fight? Im sure we would have heard any team radio traffic to Lewis telling him to let Jenson pass.

Your theory is weak (like most of yours are) Anyone with a logical brain would know Lewis had a mechanical issue and did not put up a fight because of that reason alone. No team orders, No coded messages.


And Horner should do his research. Brundle pointed out this isnt the first time Jenson wanted to start the race on the Prime, McLaren always made him do the normal first stint like the rest of the cars around him. But Jenson took the gamble and the team finally agreed during Qualifying to reverse himself to the cars around him. It didnt work but it was Jensons call.

[Hammer278]

Why waste time bud?

Anyone who thinks Jenson made a better start and the "moved over" for Lewis thinking of 'team orders' in that 400m sprint is obviously on some illegal substance.

Not to mention, after the Japanese GP, Mr Move Over not only held station and delayed a much faster Lewis at the start, but also OVERTOOK him at the end and finished ahead. Maybe now Jenson had something wrong with his head and McLaren should be punished for imaginary orders over the radio although their driver refused to comply.

[spankyham]

Why waste time bud?

Anyone who thinks Jenson made a better start and the "moved over" for Lewis thinking of 'team orders' in that 400m sprint is obviously on some illegal substance.

And a warm welcome to you Hammer. I see you're wasting no time getting into your personal pleasantries.
Sorry to disappoint though, no illegal substance use or abuse here, having lost my gorgeous sister to that recently it's a definite as far as I'm concerned.

[bud]

no illegal substance use or abuse here, having lost my gorgeous sister to that recently it's a definite as far as I'm concerned.

sorry to hear that.

[spankyham]

no illegal substance use or abuse here, having lost my gorgeous sister to that recently it's a definite as far as I'm concerned.

sorry to hear that.

Thanks

[vaptin]

I have a question. Its a question to the posters (Bill and Spanky I think) who suggested that Jenson was acting under team orders at the Singapore GP when he briefly went ahead of Lewis then fell back. Ive started a new thread becasue it was mentioned in a thread about something else.
Jenson is more risk-averse than Lewis, thats why he didnt push it, but for the sake of arguement lets assume, as you state ,that he was acting under team orders. Now my question. What on earth happened to team orders today? Twice McLaren had a chance to move or keep Hamilton ahead but they didnt on either occassion. Why? The first chance-at the beginning when Jens was on a different strategy and clearly slower than Lewis and holding him up. The second at the end when Jenson was faster and Lewis sticken with no third gear. Jenson could have stayed behind and given Lewis the extra points, they were well ahead of Schumacher. So why didnt they?

Maybe it was about giving JB an advantage? Maybe McLaren feel with LH's bad luck lately, they should have 'team orders' in place that favor JB over LH on track?

Ah but last weekend according to some it was all about giving Lewis the advantage, its all lewis's team. So what? McLaren just change their mind over two weeks and decided to favour the driver with less points?

Interesting how insistent Brundel is (and has been all year) on team orders being used.

Lewis also clearly let Jenson through there, although he was probably going to get passed soon enough.

Similar situation to Ferrari in Australia wasn't it? Car behind was faster, but team didn't ask them to move out of the way, even Mercedes did something similar this race, Schumacher was faster than Rosberg but simply told: "if you make a move, he'll give you space", which sounds to me like: "we want you to go for it". So it seems standard practice.

Mclaren had already decided that both their drivers would be going for the championship, and I'm not sure if they realistically thought Lewis would mange to pass Alonso (if he couldn't get past Jenson on merit, what were the chances of doing Alonso?).

Standard practise except in Ferrari. Lewis may well have got Alonso without the lost gear and yes Mercedes said -race but dont take each other out.But thats not the point. I know McLaren are letting both drivers race withnout team orders but Spanky and Bill seem to think thats not so. I want to know how they think Mclaren, if they had Button driving under team orders in Singapore, two weeks later failed so miserabley to issue team orders?

Well, you'll have to ask spanky and bill why they don't think so,

As for Jensons' start in Singapore, it sort of looked like he did something similar here, when I was first watching the start I thought he would have Alonso there as Jenson was faster of the line, never got to see a reply of that part though.

Anyway, Ferrari were in a unique position (this year) for the championship, as only one driver had a realistic chance of getting it, when they weren't in that position (in Austrialia) they allowed their drivers to race on track. I also suspect Alonso was more leint with Massa there, as he's smart enough to know not to take out his team mate.

If Hamilton would've been able to get past Alonso or not (not sure Alonso was pushing too hard at that point anyway,) I don't know, and its acdemic disucssing it. We might as well ask if Alonso would've overtaken Vettel in Bahrain.

Lewis also clearly let Jenson through there, although he was probably going to get passed soon enough.
.

He clearly had a mechanical problem

Yes, strongly implied by the second part of my post, at anyrate you haven't disagreed with me have you? I said Lewis let Jenson through, regardless of why you think he did it or if it was the right thing to do or not, did he let Jenson through or not?

[racechick]

Is that it? You really think McLaren brakes were overheating being used at SC pace?

Gee Spanky you seem to know more about McLaren cars than the professionals on the job! Firstly You obviously dont know a lot as what do you think the drivers are doing behind the SC? keep up their temperatures of......... A. Tyres B. Brakes!
I dunno what coverage you watched but Brundle explained it quite easily what was going on, on the McLarens brakes.
And for your stupid conspiracy theory, Lewis and Jenson both were messaging in about vibrations of the brakes which funnily enough Jenson and Lewis cant speak to each other during the race. SO get over your coded BS in yet another attempt to point fire towards McLaren and away from the blatant coding used at your own team! Which you keep saying is OK...

Eeks, ouch, ooo, ouch

As I said, it is my opinion, which I was asked to give. We just don't agree, which is also ok by me.

For my part, I don't believe that drivers of the experience of Lewis and Jenson (or for that matter any F1 driver on the grid) need to be told how to temperature their tyres and brakes behind a safety car.

Also, I would calmly point out to you that it's not "fire" that I'm pointing at McLaren, because, as you've acknowledged, I believe team orders are a good thing.

Lastly, I noticed that Racechick did ask a very specific question at the end of her post which, although I answered indirectly, I didn't really address directly - so here goes.

The reason McLaren/Lewis (quite rightly) let Jenson through without putting up any resistance was because, at that time, they new they had a serious gearbox problem, they had lost a gear completely and Lewis was reporting bad noises. Given these circumstances, you would assume the gearbox is likely to fail. Therefore, why risk letting 2 cars (not one because at that stage it was Nico and Micheal) who were close enough to be potential threats especially as Lewis had already slowed by more than 2 seconds a lap. With that rate of slow down, it would have put both Mercedes in striking distance of both McLarens before the end of the race. It was therefore smart to keep Jenson clear of any danger and hope that Lewis could make it to the finish. It's exactly the decisions I would have made given the same situation

Im sorry to hear about your sister, thats unbelievably sad , I cant imagine such a thing.

Back to the debate. Thanks for your reply. Im not sure if you deliberately like to wind up or really believe some of the things you say. Lewis was under no threat from Schumacher, he had a big enough cushion, yes he'd slowed and did the right thing by letting Jenson through; but if there are team orders in Mclaren they would have been to make Jenson stay behind; because by taking those extra points Jens still actually slips further back and they might have been very, very useful to lewis in a few weeks time. Had the situation changed(Lewis' car failed/the mercedes inexplicably gained 30 seconds)then would be the time to let Jens through. But come on switch the scenario to Massa and Alonso and reread your team order strategy. I dont think so!!!

[vaptin]

Sister? *vaptin blinks and tries to read the post above including quotes again looking for anything at all related to sister*

--

You could also argue that Jenson and Lewis are too close (in WDC points) to choose one over the other. Plus Jenson's been a clever cookie, and publicly slated team orders, got his boss to do the same, so now McLaren can't use team orders against him.