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[bud]

What racing experience do you have exactly to make such a claim?

[stonemonkey]

Not much but if you can show me any mention of the racing line with regards to this in the rules I will reconsider.

[bud]

Not much

Thank you

[stonemonkey]

Not much

Thank you

If you could point out where you think I may be wrong and back it up with the sporting rules that could be helpful.

[spankyham]

Not much

Thank you

If you could point out where you think I may be wrong and back it up with the sporting rules that could be helpful.

Having racing experience helps sometimes, but it's not necessary. In the same way that F1 engineers and aerodynamics experts also don't have to be racing drivers.

A question to anyone who thinks the "racing line" has a meaning or relevance to this discussion, please draw/describe to me the racing line on any corner you like?

[smokin]

Photos chosen to support the argument - Monza photo from before Massa moved across squeezing Hamilton off the track, Singapore photo after Hamilton moved across.

At Monza, Hamilton stuck his nose where it didn't belong, Massa moved across and they touched. At Singapore, Webber stuck his nose where it didn't belong, Hamilton moved across and they touched. The only difference is that, in Massa's case, he had nowhere to go but off the track to avoid moving across. Hamilton, at Singapore, could have given Webber more room but didn't.

Both racing incidents; Hamilton caused the first one, both Webber and Hamilton contributed to the second.

[bud]

Stonemonkey the point im trying to make and which you obviously do not fathom is that we are in the realm of racing etiquette. Something that spans more classes than just F1, You wont find that in any rule F1 book no matter how much you want to read them!

A question to anyone who thinks the "racing line" has a meaning or relevance to this discussion, please draw/describe to me the racing line on any corner you like?

you cant just pick a corner and ask for the racing line. A racing line might alter on a corner depending on the one before and the one that follows. Tracks are fluid.


on the move though, if you dont think the racingline plays any part in what happened. Let Webber take the same line he took during the incident and take away Hamiltons car and we will see where he ends up afterwards. Webbers move was more a touring car move than an open wheeler move. As Stonemonkey has shown in previous videos, he likes to stick his car 3/4 of the length (which Stonemonkey also points out, is in the cars blind spot) up the inside of another car into corners and having a bit of argy bargy, this is fine in a touring car which can handle the bumps but in open wheel you risk taking yourself out as much as the other car.
And if you seen his tyre at the end of the race in Singapore he was lucky to not take himself out in that clash too.

[billindenver]

Webber was protecting the inside line. If you can't fathom that, then you need to go back to carting school. Webber didn't stick his car into Hamilton's blind spot....Hamilton was the one on the move. Hamilton was attempting an outside pass and THAT put Webbers car where it was. Hamilton chose not to leave Webber room and it caused a collision. Tell me bud, with all your vast racing experience, if you are threshold breaking already...and a guy cuts across your nose...can you slow any more to avoid him? Do you know what threshold braking is?

Watching you dress down someone else for not having cockpit time is like watching a 4 year old yell at a toddler for wetting his diaper. You are in here posting every single weekend all weekend long with very few exceptions. That means you are not out racing anything worth talking about because every series I've ever run or heard of requires weekend travel. Even if it's 3 hours down the road in single day events, the day starts early so you spend at least Friday night away. Perhaps you race around cones in your apartment parking lot with your buddies?

The realm of racing etiquette... FFS, you crack me up.

[bud]

Bill I see you posted and no doubt to belittle me as you usually do( its either hamilton or myself you like to post about so i guess im in good company) but guess what you're on my block list I don't see what you write so you might as well not bother anymore :seeya:

[spankyham]

Now now Bud and Bill!! You boys leave the "upsetting other people" round here to the expert - ME

Bud, I think you get my point on the "racing line" - there is no such thing. As you said, it changes depending on previous and next corners. But, it also changes based on if you're defending, setting a hot lap in clear traffic, conserving, car setup, characteristics, driver idiosyncrasies etc etc

Therefore, it is silly to talk about someone having "the" racing line.

This is nothing more than a racing incident. Both guys contributed.

IMO Lewis could have completed the pass and avoided the contact, just my opinion. Also, as I have pointed out, there is a rule that clearly states Lewis was obliged to leave room for Mark to stay on the track - it didn't look like he left that room for him to me - but that's just my opinion and, even if true, it wasn't, again IMO, worth any action being taken - its part of racing.

You're completely right Bill about Webber having a right to the line and position he was in and trying to hold, and it was valid, I mean, its part of the track and a driver is allowed to use any part of the track - I think the only restriction is you can't change line more than once if defending a position. Mark clearly didn't do that.

And, Bill, I like you're thinking with the cones, my wife too, she thinks the parking lot is way more appropriate than our lounge room.

[texasmr2]

Now now Bud and Bill!! You boys leave the "upsetting other people" round here to the expert - ME

Bud, I think you get my point on the "racing line" - there is no such thing. As you said, it changes depending on previous and next corners. But, it also changes based on if you're defending, setting a hot lap in clear traffic, conserving, car setup, characteristics, driver idiosyncrasies etc etc

Therefore, it is silly to talk about someone having "the" racing line.

This is nothing more than a racing incident. Both guys contributed.

IMO Lewis could have completed the pass and avoided the contact, just my opinion. Also, as I have pointed out, there is a rule that clearly states Lewis was obliged to leave room for Mark to stay on the track - it didn't look like he left that room for him to me - but that's just my opinion and, even if true, it wasn't, again IMO, worth any action being taken - its part of racing.

You're completely right Bill about Webber having a right to the line and position he was in and trying to hold, and it was valid, I mean, its part of the track and a driver is allowed to use any part of the track - I think the only restriction is you can't change line more than once if defending a position. Mark clearly didn't do that.

And, Bill, I like you're thinking with the cones, my wife too, she thinks the parking lot is way more appropriate than our lounge room.

Very neutral I like it!

[spankyham]

Photos chosen to support the argument - Monza photo from before Massa moved across squeezing Hamilton off the track

Yes, I chose the pics to demonstrate my point - stating the obvious, but ok.
I wasn't aware that Massa pushed Lewis off track, didn't see that from my angle, please post a pic or video.

, Singapore photo after Hamilton moved across.

At Monza, Hamilton stuck his nose where it didn't belong, Massa moved across and they touched. At Singapore, Webber stuck his nose where it didn't belong, Hamilton moved across and they touched. The only difference is that, in Massa's case, he had nowhere to go but off the track to avoid moving across. Hamilton, at Singapore, could have given Webber more room but didn't.

Both racing incidents; Hamilton caused the first one, both Webber and Hamilton contributed to the second.

Yep, as I've been saying since the incident happened, its a racing incident and no action should have been taken.

[stonemonkey]

Stonemonkey the point im trying to make and which you obviously do not fathom is that we are in the realm of racing etiquette. Something that spans more classes than just F1, You wont find that in any rule F1 book no matter how much you want to read them!

ok, so I can understand the terms of racing etiquette:

near the start of the first lap in Monza after trying to follow Alonso round the outside of the fast right hand corner but finding himself on the wrong side of Massa with twenty cars right behind should Hamilton brake early at a heavy braking zone and hope no one was coming up behind Massa or should he stick to his position and give room to cars around him?

In singapore, when Hamilton couldn't tell where Webber was should he have aimed for the apex with the belief that Webber wouldn't put his car where he did?

[texasmr2]

We already have these:

imagesCA65NX33.jpg

Now it seems these are fighting for dominance :

mp3-glasses.jpg

[stonemonkey]

We already have these:

imagesCA65NX33.jpg

Now it seems these are fighting for dominance :

mp3-glasses.jpg

Not quite Tex, I asked questions about two incidents I've been told I don't understand, one of which I believe Hamilton to be at fault.