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[texasmr2]

Jeez this is getting sad .

[spankyham]

I'm on the record that I think the Singapore/Webber/Hamilton collision was part of racing and neither driver should have been penalised.

I'm still of this opinion. However, I don't think it can be compared to Monza/Hamilton/Massa. That was Hamilton's fault.

Here's an image just as the impact is going to happen at Monza. Note that Hamilton is given room to be on-track by Massa, meaning all Hamilton's car is on the track and he has been given sufficient room by Massa for that:-


Here is an image of the Singapore incident. Note that Lewis has positioned his car to not leave room for Mark to stay on the track. If you watch the video you can see how far over the kerbing Mark is forced. It was clearly accentuated by the ridiculously high Singapore kerbing which many people said, before the race, might cause problems:-


Now, if you want to start apportioning "blame" then I think you must go to the rules. The FIA 2010 Sporting Regulations Article 16.1 refers to penalisable incidents. It states as follows:-
"Incident" means any occurrence or series of occurrences involving one or more drivers, or any action by
any driver, which is reported to the stewards by the race director (or noted by the stewards and referred to
the race director for investigation) which: - forced a driver off the track.

Hamilton definitely forced Mark off the track. (sorry RC, have to call it as I sees it)
BUT I don't think anything deserved any penalty - it was a racing incident and should be left that way.

[texasmr2]

Most of us here with any common sense realize that it was just a racing incident but since it involved Hamilton who can 'do no wrong' in some peoples eye's we have simply just another....... fest.

[racechick]

Yeah dont know why Bill brought i back up agen...but you lnow Tex if you're fed up of the discussin...dont open the thread

And Spanky, you're right, I disagree with you're view

[spankyham]

Yeah dont know why Bill brought i back up agen...but you lnow Tex if you're fed up of the discussin...dont open the thread

And Spanky, you're right, I disagree with you're view

WoW! I didn't see that coming

[bud]

Hamilton definitely forced Mark off the track. (sorry RC, have to call it as I sees it)
BUT I don't think anything deserved any penalty - it was a racing incident and should be left that way.

youre hate for the man is clouding your common sense. Forced mark off track??? he was ahead how on earth is that possible ?? Do me a favour go start racing, karting, cars anything and then come back and talk your supposed racing knowledge on these types of incidences!

[spankyham]

Hamilton definitely forced Mark off the track. (sorry RC, have to call it as I sees it)
BUT I don't think anything deserved any penalty - it was a racing incident and should be left that way.

youre hate for the man is clouding your common sense. Forced mark off track??? he was ahead how on earth is that possible ?? Do me a favour go start racing, karting, cars anything and then come back and talk your supposed racing knowledge on these types of incidences!

No hate and definitely nothing against him personally. I'd be glad to share a beer or ten with him. Some of the things he says and does I can't agree with though.

Also, you seem to have missed that my opinion is it is a racing incident, no-one to be penalised.

From what I see on video I've watched and the image above, Lewis must have known Mark was there, and definitely didn't leave room for Mark's car to stay on track. Technically, the rule says it's his obligation to leave him room. The sad bit for Lewis is, he just didn't have to do it, I'm 100% sure, and I'm confident you'd agree, that if he did go wider around that corner he would have easily passed Mark and finished the race.

Now, what I think we should do to dispell all these thoughts that I "hate" him are, lets tie him up, put him in a sack, then throw him in the river - if he comes to the surface, we burn him at the stake as a warlock, otherwise he's ok.

[bud]

passing is done by two drivers, one needs to know when he is beaten. Mark did not concede even though he was off line and behind Lewis after he got him on the pryer to the corner. And if Lewis was not there for him to hit he would have understeered off into the exit of the corner or even into the wall!
Im not saying Mark needed to get penalised. theres too much of that in F1 and they wonder why no one trys to overtake! What im saying is Lewis was not at fault and did not have to give Mark anymore room than he did. The onus was on Mark there. Unlike Italy where Lewis was 100% at fault.

[spankyham]

passing is done by two drivers, one needs to know when he is beaten. Mark did not concede even though he was off line and behind Lewis after he got him on the pryer to the corner. And if Lewis was not there for him to hit he would have understeered off into the exit of the corner or even into the wall!
Im not saying Mark needed to get penalised. theres too much of that in F1 and they wonder why no one trys to overtake! What im saying is Lewis was not at fault and did not have to give Mark anymore room than he did. The onus was on Mark there. Unlike Italy where Lewis was 100% at fault.

We agree on the penalty - no-one deserved a penalty for what was good racing.
Seems we disagree that Lewis could have easily gone a bit wider and completed the pass.

But what about the all important Lewis-in-the-river test?

[bud]

River test? excuse my ignorance but i dont get it?

[spankyham]

River test? excuse my ignorance but i dont get it?

Last paragraph of my post (go back 2), seemed a reasonable idea to me

[Robert12010]

Hamilton definitely forced Mark off the track. (sorry RC, have to call it as I sees it)
BUT I don't think anything deserved any penalty - it was a racing incident and should be left that way.

[b]youre hate for the man is clouding your common sense. Forced mark off track??? he was ahead how on earth is that possible ?? Do me a favour go start racing, karting, cars anything and then come back and talk your supposed racing knowledge on these types of incidences!

[/b]

[f1ea]

So... conclusions:

1) Monza: racing incident. Lewis at fault as Massa gave him enough room.

2) Singapore: racing incident. Either Lewis at fault for not counting on Webber being there and not giving him enough room, or Webber, out of desperation, making an overeager move where there was very little room. Should Webber have yielded or should Lewis have given him enough room??

I guess neither yielded, nor held back. They both bet on the built-strenght of their car. Webber won.

[Hexagram]

So... conclusions:

1) Monza: racing incident. Lewis at fault as Massa gave him enough room.

2) Singapore: racing incident. Either Lewis at fault for not counting on Webber being there and not giving him enough room, or Webber, out of desperation, making an overeager move where there was very little room. Should Webber have yielded or should Lewis have given him enough room??

I guess neither yielded, nor held back. They both bet on the built-strenght of their car. Webber won.

13 pages later...

[stonemonkey]

Most of us here with any common sense realize that it was just a racing incident but since it involved Hamilton who can 'do no right' in some peoples eye's we have simply just another....... fest.

There, fixed that for ya Tex.

That's part in joke but not completely btw.

In the pics Spankyham posted, as I said before, Massa and Hamilton gave each other room in Monza and neither did anything wrong and if that very slight contact hadn't broken his steering no one would've thought anything of it. In Singapore Hamilton was in the wrong although with the current attitudes towards what the racing line means by many people and drivers it didn't occur to him that Webber, who he couldn't see in his blind spot, would put his car where he did.

You do not have to yield just because the other guy is on the racing line, but you cannot move from one side of the track to the other (including when going round corners) when another car is there regardless of who is on the racing line.