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[vaptin]

I said it was a racing incident, and haven't changed that view, not milking nuffin. Wish I was, I like milk, and it doesn't taste as good when your only using it for wheatabix.

[stonemonkey]

Yes I understand what you are attempting to get across and I agree wholeheartedly; I wasn't replying to anyone specifically, just making a statement using Lewis' own words.

Right, sorry. I just feel that every time I've tried to post that someone thinks I'm having a go at one driver or another when I'm not.

[vaptin]

Yes I understand what you are attempting to get across and I agree wholeheartedly; I wasn't replying to anyone specifically, just making a statement using Lewis' own words.

Right, sorry. I just feel that every time I've tried to post that someone thinks I'm having a go at one driver or another when I'm not.

Yeah, why you starting on Luca Badoer now?

Anyway, these accusations, its all part of the "fun", no?

[stonemonkey]

I said it was a racing incident, and haven't changed that view, not milking nuffin. Wish I was, I like milk, and it doesn't taste as good when your only using it for wheatabix.

Racing incident, yes. The problem is we seem to get more incidents than racing and I blame that partly on this racing line mentality. Take a look back at that Gilles-Rene clip and imagine how that would have turned out if one of them had it.

[vaptin]

I said it was a racing incident, and haven't changed that view, not milking nuffin. Wish I was, I like milk, and it doesn't taste as good when your only using it for wheatabix.

Racing incident, yes. The problem is we seem to get more incidents than racing and I blame that partly on this racing line mentality. Take a look back at that Gilles-Rene clip and imagine how that would have turned out if one of them had it.

So I can be clear, in a (rough) nutshell, your saying Jenson V Lewis in Turkey rather than Webber V Vettel?

Some drivers seem capable of dicing it side to side cleanly, I would say Alonso is the most obvious one (hopes the thread doesn't spontaneously combust) but I think a greater amount of blame might go hand in hand why its so diffcult to overtake.

1. A driver being overtaken (particularly if its due to a more unique situation like being held up by a backmarker) knows he's unlikely to be able to take the place back later in the race. Might also make the overtaker even more keen and desperate to get past.
2. The reliance on aero dynamics and the dirty air, the driver following loses a lot of their grip rapidly.

[stonemonkey]

So I can be clear, in a (rough) nutshell, your saying Jenson V Lewis in Turkey rather than Webber V Vettel?

In a way, Lewis and Jenson gave each other the space, Webber didn't have to move for Vettel but Vettel didn't expect Webber not to move, even after he couldn't comprehend what had happened.

Some drivers seem capable of dicing it side to side cleanly, I would say Alonso is the most obvious one (hopes the thread doesn't spontaneously combust) but I think a greater amount of blame might go hand in hand why its so diffcult to overtake.

Massa too I think and maybe some of the other older heads, Kubica is maybe one of the younger ones, not sure. But again I would say that the ones who aren't are the ones who would say 'but I had the racing line'.

1. A driver being overtaken (particularly if its due to a more unique situation like being held up by a backmarker) knows he's unlikely to be able to take the place back later in the race. Might also make the overtaker even more keen and desperate to get past.
2. The reliance on aero dynamics and the dirty air, the driver following loses a lot of their grip rapidly.

Webber wasn't affected by dirty air on his dive up the inside, dirty track offline would but if more drivers gave that a go it wouldn't be so dirty.

[myownalias]

Personally I believe that drivers like Mark Webber area a refreshing change, never mind all this "think about the championship" nonsense; Webber wants to go racing and if another driver wants to overtake him, they will have to make a great move as he is not going to move over for anyone; and that's how it should be in my opinion! This is one of the reasons why I like Kobayashi; he's not afraid to aggressively defend his position or indeed aggressively overtake, but his attitude impresses the most; when he's out of the race; he doesn't blame anyone; "that's racing" is his general answer! In my opinion; F1 into a pale shadow of what it used to be 15 years ago!

[texasmr2]

The season will be over and this debate will still be brewing ! Simple fact is, and I will reachout for anyone here who has actually raced ANYTHING, too explain why it was Webbers fault in ANY WAY!! In racing it is down to the car/driver trying for the pass to make it clean. Hamilton tried for the outside which was awesome as he is so aggressive and exciting but Webber had the line so it was HIS choice on how to defend his position, really this is not rocket science it's very fundamental.

Do you race anything? Please don't mention PS3 or the like. I race karts every week but that doesn't mean I'm so qualified to question others racing knowledge. But Lewis HAD THE LINE. Webber was pushed offline, he knew it but he pushed the issue and punted Lewis out.

In Monza, I'm sure you will readily agree Lewis was at fault. Well, in Singapore, Lewis was Massa and Webber was Lewis. Get the drift? (pun intended)

Yes sir I aswell have raced karts but I still think your wrong .

[Hammer278]

That's a hell of an argument sheriff. I'm stumped.

[texasmr2]

That's a hell of an argument sheriff. I'm stumped.

Aswell as I but hey it's only a difference of opinion right?

[racechick]

That's a hell of an argument sheriff. I'm stumped.

[billindenver]

But Lewis had the line!

Tell me this then....if having the line means you get a free pass....why does every driver move to the inside to protect the corner when worried the car behind might make a move? If being on the mystical fastest line means you have the 'right of way', wouldn't the car behind simply move onto the racing line, properly apex the corner and claim the spot? Wouldn't the front car simply stay on the line, well assured that he can't be passed because he 'has the line?"

We guard the inside line because diving up the inside means you can brake later and block the guy who is on the line...forcing him to go around you on the outside or try an up and under move (or collide with you of course). The inside is protected because he who owns the inside, will nearly always own the corner. Being on the perfect racing line does NOT mean you own the corner, because the outside guy will have to go around him in some way or do something completely ignorant like ignore the car who is at the apex and collide with him. An outside pass is harder to do, which is why Hamilton once made his comment about nobody passing him on the outside. He was attempting a pass on the outside this time...and it went badly for him. He didn't own the corner in any way simply because he had the outside line...he made an attempt and assumed Webber would scream in terror and back out of it. It was a silly and stupid thing to assume when the championship hung in the balance.

Nobody can be shocked by the attempt, or the outcome. Taking stupid chances and ruining his season has become a Hamilton trademark....not giving an inch and being very difficult to pass is certainly a Webber trademark. The outcome was nearly perfect in its predictability.

[racechick]

But Lewis had the line!

Tell me this then....if having the line means you get a free pass....why does every driver move to the inside to protect the corner when worried the car behind might make a move? If being on the mystical fastest line means you have the 'right of way', wouldn't the car behind simply move onto the racing line, properly apex the corner and claim the spot? Wouldn't the front car simply stay on the line, well assured that he can't be passed because he 'has the line?"

We guard the inside line because diving up the inside means you can brake later and block the guy who is on the line...forcing him to go around you on the outside or try an up and under move (or collide with you of course). The inside is protected because he who owns the inside, will nearly always own the corner. Being on the perfect racing line does NOT mean you own the corner, because the outside guy will have to go around him in some way or do something completely ignorant like ignore the car who is at the apex and collide with him. An outside pass is harder to do, which is why Hamilton once made his comment about nobody passing him on the outside. He was attempting a pass on the outside this time...and it went badly for him. He didn't own the corner in any way simply because he had the outside line...he made an attempt and assumed Webber would scream in terror and back out of it. It was a silly and stupid thing to assume when the championship hung in the balance.

Nobody can be shocked by the attempt, or the outcome. Taking stupid chances and ruining his season has become a Hamilton trademark....not giving an inch and being very difficult to pass is certainly a Webber trademark. The outcome was nearly perfect in its predictability.

It wasnt stupid or silly because he was past before the corner, not passing on the actual corner. I assume you're talking about Singapore not Monza as the thread is titled. Monza, yep he should have waited in retrospect ,but retrospect is a wonderful thing . If lewis relied on retrospect instead of talent and skill he'd probably be a couch potato driver like us forum posters, but he isnt, he's a world champion.

[billindenver]

But Lewis had the line!

Tell me this then....if having the line means you get a free pass....why does every driver move to the inside to protect the corner when worried the car behind might make a move? If being on the mystical fastest line means you have the 'right of way', wouldn't the car behind simply move onto the racing line, properly apex the corner and claim the spot? Wouldn't the front car simply stay on the line, well assured that he can't be passed because he 'has the line?"

We guard the inside line because diving up the inside means you can brake later and block the guy who is on the line...forcing him to go around you on the outside or try an up and under move (or collide with you of course). The inside is protected because he who owns the inside, will nearly always own the corner. Being on the perfect racing line does NOT mean you own the corner, because the outside guy will have to go around him in some way or do something completely ignorant like ignore the car who is at the apex and collide with him. An outside pass is harder to do, which is why Hamilton once made his comment about nobody passing him on the outside. He was attempting a pass on the outside this time...and it went badly for him. He didn't own the corner in any way simply because he had the outside line...he made an attempt and assumed Webber would scream in terror and back out of it. It was a silly and stupid thing to assume when the championship hung in the balance.

Nobody can be shocked by the attempt, or the outcome. Taking stupid chances and ruining his season has become a Hamilton trademark....not giving an inch and being very difficult to pass is certainly a Webber trademark. The outcome was nearly perfect in its predictability.

It wasnt stupid or silly because he was past before the corner, not passing on the actual corner. I assume you're talking about Singapore not Monza as the thread is titled. Monza, yep he should have waited in retrospect ,but retrospect is a wonderful thing . If lewis relied on retrospect instead of talent and skill he'd probably be a couch potato driver like us forum posters, but he isnt, he's a world champion.

I'll certainly concede that. He is a world champion. Once...when that legitimately should be thrice. He's blown it more times than he's won it...and he very nearly blew it the one time he did win it. At least he is consistent.

[racechick]

But Lewis had the line!

Tell me this then....if having the line means you get a free pass....why does every driver move to the inside to protect the corner when worried the car behind might make a move? If being on the mystical fastest line means you have the 'right of way', wouldn't the car behind simply move onto the racing line, properly apex the corner and claim the spot? Wouldn't the front car simply stay on the line, well assured that he can't be passed because he 'has the line?"

We guard the inside line because diving up the inside means you can brake later and block the guy who is on the line...forcing him to go around you on the outside or try an up and under move (or collide with you of course). The inside is protected because he who owns the inside, will nearly always own the corner. Being on the perfect racing line does NOT mean you own the corner, because the outside guy will have to go around him in some way or do something completely ignorant like ignore the car who is at the apex and collide with him. An outside pass is harder to do, which is why Hamilton once made his comment about nobody passing him on the outside. He was attempting a pass on the outside this time...and it went badly for him. He didn't own the corner in any way simply because he had the outside line...he made an attempt and assumed Webber would scream in terror and back out of it. It was a silly and stupid thing to assume when the championship hung in the balance.

Nobody can be shocked by the attempt, or the outcome. Taking stupid chances and ruining his season has become a Hamilton trademark....not giving an inch and being very difficult to pass is certainly a Webber trademark. The outcome was nearly perfect in its predictability.

It wasnt stupid or silly because he was past before the corner, not passing on the actual corner. I assume you're talking about Singapore not Monza as the thread is titled. Monza, yep he should have waited in retrospect ,but retrospect is a wonderful thing . If lewis relied on retrospect instead of talent and skill he'd probably be a couch potato driver like us forum posters, but he isnt, he's a world champion.

I'll certainly concede that. He is a world champion. Once...when that legitimately should be thrice. He's blown it more times than he's won it...and he very nearly blew it the one time he did win it. At least he is consistent.

Imagine that! In contention in his rookie year agaist a 'two time champion'.And the youngest ever champion despite missing out that year. Yep damn good going