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[The Ram]

Webber knew that Hamilton's car was going to be there, he also had a good view of the turn and he should have used his brain.
Also, notice that he never goes into any of the details of the accident in his video review? On the other hand Hamilton has no problem retelling the details of the incident over and over? That is how we know Webber is the guilty party.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/videos/475/w ... h-ferrari/

[vaptin]

Webber knew that Hamilton's car was going to be there, he also had a good view of the turn and he should have used his brain.
Also, notice that he never goes into any of the details of the accident in his video review? On the other hand Hamilton has no problem retelling the details of the incident over and over? That is how we know Webber is the guilty party.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/videos/475/w ... h-ferrari/

Are you old enough (and in a applicable country) to be on a jury? I ruddy hope not.

[f1ea]

ok, and the point I've been trying to make is that I think it's the wrong approach and that Webber is going some way to proving that. The mentality is only there because it's shared and I feel it's stifling F1 so it's good to see Webber mixing things up and hopefully others will learn from him.

So far it's led to more crashes not necessarily better racing. Webber can attest what it feels like when another driver does something he didn't expect them to do, REDBULL GIVES YOU WINGS!

Yes. This is it. The drivers and fans had started to get used to that mentality, as derived from the modern cars and the safety concerns.

Webber knew that Hamilton's car was going to be there, he also had a good view of the turn and he should have used his brain.
Also, notice that he never goes into any of the details of the accident in his video review? On the other hand Hamilton has no problem retelling the details of the incident over and over? That is how we know Webber is the guilty party.

Sure.
Here... have a cookie.

[stonemonkey]

So far it's led to more crashes not necessarily better racing. Webber can attest what it feels like when another driver does something he didn't expect them to do, REDBULL GIVES YOU WINGS!

ok, well aside from whatever the hell happened in Valencia the collisions in Australia, Turkey and Singapore weren't only down to one side, it was a clash of the two opinions although I'm pretty sure Webber knew what he was heading for each time. Drivers having a shared opinion on what the racing line means is less likely to end in tears.

As far as I know, the racing line is not mentioned in the sporting regulations and other than the moving to block rules the only rule pertaining to moving across the track is that you don't force someone off the track in doing so, so that completely nullifies any advantage anyone thinks the racing line gives.

With that in mind what happened in Monza was completely fair driving by both Hamilton and Massa, Hamilton made the mistake of attempting to follow Alonso on the approach to the chicane but Hamilton and Massa gave each other room and it was just unlucky (depending on your point of view) that the slight contact ended his race.

[vaptin]

So far it's led to more crashes not necessarily better racing. Webber can attest what it feels like when another driver does something he didn't expect them to do, REDBULL GIVES YOU WINGS!

ok, well aside from whatever the hell happened in Valencia the collisions in Australia, Turkey and Singapore weren't only down to one side, it was a clash of the two opinions although I'm pretty sure Webber knew what he was heading for each time. Drivers having a shared opinion on what the racing line means is less likely to end in tears.

As far as I know, the racing line is not mentioned in the sporting regulations and other than the moving to block rules the only rule pertaining to moving across the track is that you don't force someone off the track in doing so, so that completely nullifies any advantage anyone thinks the racing line gives.

/quote]

I think the idea of the racing line is more to do with and "standard" racing driving than an actual fia rule.

[stonemonkey]

I think the idea of the racing line is more to do with and "standard" racing driving than an actual fia rule.

ok, well here's my previous question

Two drivers coming along the Monza backstraight towards parabolica wheel to wheel. Where the racing line switches from right to left the driver on the racing line follows it and there's contact, who's at fault?

[vaptin]

I think the idea of the racing line is more to do with and "standard" racing driving than an actual fia rule.

ok, well here's my previous question

Two drivers coming along the Monza backstraight towards parabolica wheel to wheel. Where the racing line switches from right to left the driver on the racing line follows it and there's contact, who's at fault?

It's quite clearly the driver on the racing line initially, (assuming the second driver was originally on the left), but the racing line still sort of applies in that case as surely the driver at first not on the racing line will find themselves on it when the line switches?

But, its why I prefer the term "track position", if their wheel to wheel they both have to try and ensure there's enough space to go around the track without a collision, Monza was different as Massa was entitled to not bother about Hamilton, if the drivers physically along side you, you have to negotiate space to avoid contact.

[stonemonkey]

I think the idea of the racing line is more to do with and "standard" racing driving than an actual fia rule.

ok, well here's my previous question

Two drivers coming along the Monza backstraight towards parabolica wheel to wheel. Where the racing line switches from right to left the driver on the racing line follows it and there's contact, who's at fault?

It's quite clearly the driver on the racing line initially, (assuming the second driver was originally on the left), but the racing line still sort of applies in that case as surely the driver at first not on the racing line will find themselves on it when the line switches?

But, its why I prefer the term "track position", if their wheel to wheel they both have to try and ensure there's enough space to go around the track without a collision, Monza was different as Massa was entitled to not bother about Hamilton, if the drivers physically along side you, you have to negotiate space to avoid contact.

its why I prefer the term "track position", if their wheel to wheel they both have to try and ensure there's enough space to go around the track without a collision

That's the written rule and if you look back at the Gilles-Rene clip you'll see they stick to it.

Monza was different as Massa was entitled to not bother about Hamilton

That's wrong but both were fair anyway.

[myownalias]

The racing line is irrelevant; the racing line is whatever the driver sees fit to get through a corner the fastest he can. if the driver on the perceived racing always has the right of way then there would never be any overtaking. Which brings up the idea that it's not the tracks or the cars that are the problem; its the mentality of younger drivers that is at fault? As I said before Hamilton had enough room to drive around Webber but elected to chop the Aussie and Hamilton being out of the race was the result. Mark's lack of playing the blame game means nothing at all; it just means that he doesn't feel he needs to run his mouth about the incident, what happened is there for everyone to see, he doesn't need to comment, he probably just wants to concentrate on his title challenge. Basically if Hamilton expects drivers to concede the corner just because he is on the racing line, he is going to have a tough time in F1, that sort of move that he pulled on Webber could be construed as pushing a driver off the track!

[stonemonkey]

The racing line is irrelevant; the racing line is whatever the driver sees fit to get through a corner the fastest he can. if the driver on the perceived racing always has the right of way then there would never be any overtaking. Which brings up the idea that it's not the tracks or the cars that are the problem; its the mentality of younger drivers that is at fault? As I said before Hamilton had enough room to drive around Webber but elected to chop the Aussie and Hamilton being out of the race was the result. Mark's lack of playing the blame game means nothing at all; it just means that he doesn't feel he needs to run his mouth about the incident, what happened is there for everyone to see, he doesn't need to comment, he probably just wants to concentrate on his title challenge. Basically if Hamilton expects drivers to concede the corner just because he is on the racing line, he is going to have a tough time in F1, that sort of move that he pulled on Webber could be construed as pushing a driver off the track!

No one's criticised Webber in the slightest and I agree that Hamilton was at fault in Singapore but not in the way you're meaning although you agree that the mentality of younger drivers regarding the racing line is a problem, it's Webber being in his blind spot and this racing line mentality that prevented Hamilton from anticipating where Webber would be, if more drivers drove like Webber they'd get used to it and be able to anticipate it better.
What Webber did was unusual in current F1 and goes against the typical self preservation shown by most drivers (esp. at this point in the championship) which took Hamilton by surprise.

[FRAFPDD]

The racing line is irrelevant; the racing line is whatever the driver sees fit to get through a corner the fastest he can. if the driver on the perceived racing always has the right of way then there would never be any overtaking. Which brings up the idea that it's not the tracks or the cars that are the problem; its the mentality of younger drivers that is at fault? As I said before Hamilton had enough room to drive around Webber but elected to chop the Aussie and Hamilton being out of the race was the result. Mark's lack of playing the blame game means nothing at all; it just means that he doesn't feel he needs to run his mouth about the incident, what happened is there for everyone to see, he doesn't need to comment, he probably just wants to concentrate on his title challenge. Basically if Hamilton expects drivers to concede the corner just because he is on the racing line, he is going to have a tough time in F1, that sort of move that he pulled on Webber could be construed as pushing a driver off the track!

Oh my goodness would you guys drop it, your assuming Hamilton is saying what the fool- hamilton fans are saying, no hes not, theres some hamilton fans on hre that arent going to accept blame so theres no point arguing, that said, you, f1ea and i hink vaptin have all milked this chance to condne Hamilton to the point that its borderline obsessive. All i see in posts ae " if hamilton expects this" "hamilton thinks hes all that" its all gossip, hamilton probably thinks nothing of it at the moment, and IT WAS A RACING INCIDENT, the stewards deem it as this, the commentators for the bbc saw it as this, popular opinion sees it as this im afraid to say this is turning more and more into a Hamilton lacks this and that thread, Hamilton blah blah, im obsessive about showing that Hamilton isnt perfect (you guys may not be at personal fault but subconsciously its happening) Nobody was at fault because there was no fault. The very title of this thread is enough to suffice my argument, people are either really bored or really obsessed. Hamilto fanboys reading you arent clear either, you cant defend the actions of Monza i particular and somewhat Singapore just cause Hamiltons a good driver. Take it on the chin

[myownalias]

It's a discussion forum; so discussion will happen, it's the nature of the board; this isn't arguments, both sides put their points across.

Anyway, a snippet from the BBC with quotes from Lewis Hamilton:

Hamilton's Singapore Grand Prix came to an end after attempting to pass Webber's Red Bull on lap 36 but the McLaren driver has stated that he was not to blame for the incident.

"I've seen the replay and I was half a car-length ahead of Mark, and on the racing line.

"It's very frustrating that in Italy, I tapped the car in front and it broke my front suspension, and in Singapore, the car behind tapped me and punctured my tyre. I've been unlucky both times."

I believe that the highlighted line indicates that Hamilton is blaming Webber for the collision; that indicates to me that because he was ahead by half a cars length and on the racing line; he has right of way and other drivers need to back out of the corner and let him have an easy pass. This probably is a mentality issue on the part of the younger drivers which has been brought on by drivers being effectively punished for racing, it's motor racing, crashes happen, forget about it and look forward to the next race!

[FRAFPDD]

It's a discussion forum; so discussion will happen, it's the nature of the board; this isn't arguments, both sides put their points across.

Anyway, a snippet from the BBC with quotes from Lewis Hamilton:

Hamilton's Singapore Grand Prix came to an end after attempting to pass Webber's Red Bull on lap 36 but the McLaren driver has stated that he was not to blame for the incident.

"I've seen the replay and I was half a car-length ahead of Mark, and on the racing line.

"It's very frustrating that in Italy, I tapped the car in front and it broke my front suspension, and in Singapore, the car behind tapped me and punctured my tyre. I've been unlucky both times."

I believe that the highlighted line indicates that Hamilton is blaming Webber for the collision; that indicates to me that because he was ahead by half a cars length and on the racing line; he has right of way and other drivers need to back out of the corner and let him have an easy pass. This probably is a mentality issue on the part of the younger drivers which has been brought on by drivers being effectively punished for racing, it's motor racing, crashes happen, forget about it and look forward to the next race!

Its not really " meaningful" discussion at the moment, i believe that the green highlighted is hamilton attempting to explain that he was not at fault, rater then webber being at fault. Especially considering he is out and Webber isnt, people naturally woud assume he did something wrong being the only one out.

[stonemonkey]

that indicates to me that because he was ahead by half a cars length and on the racing line; he has right of way and other drivers need to back out of the corner and let him have an easy pass

What is going on here? that's what I've been saying is wrong with this racing line mentality throughout F1.

[myownalias]

that indicates to me that because he was ahead by half a cars length and on the racing line; he has right of way and other drivers need to back out of the corner and let him have an easy pass

What is going on here? that's what I've been saying is wrong with this racing line mentality throughout F1.

Yes I understand what you are attempting to get across and I agree wholeheartedly; I wasn't replying to anyone specifically, just making a statement using Lewis' own words.

Its not really " meaningful" discussion at the moment, i believe that the green highlighted is hamilton attempting to explain that he was not at fault, rater then webber being at fault. Especially considering he is out and Webber isnt, people naturally woud assume he did something wrong being the only one out.

Half the discussion on this forum isn't very meaningful really; that's the nature of Internet discussion forums, if you can't beat them, join them!