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[Kai FT]

I know we've had several discussions about how bad those tilke-tracks are, but i would like to take a different aproach and try to understand why they are so bad.

I am studying architecture in Munich and graphic design is another longtime hobby i am very interrested in. So naturally, my point of view will be a bit artistic.

I have a theory that a good track has got a layout that is also a beautiful sign. You could look at it as if it would be logotype. A feature every Logotype should have is recognition value. One could already name some of the new tracks that already fail in that point and don't have any recognition value whatsoever. Bahrain, Singapore and Valencia comes to my mind in particular.

One way to achieve a good recognition value is simplicity as every graphic designer would tell you. Most of the new circuits are overly complicated and that derogates them a lot. Monza and the old Hockenheim score big in that respect. Sometimes less is more and it is quite remarkable how much can be achieved with so little. In architectural terms speaking i would compare those tracks to Bauhaus - beautiful in its functional simplicity

Spa on the other hand is much more sophisticated. Every additional squiggle is like a decoration, but with structural integrity to the whole. It has a very organic feel which helps it to fit so beautifully in its surroundings. This is the architecture of Nature (God). Its beauty comes from variety and apparent imperfection. The closest comparable man-made creation that comes to my mind is the architecture of Gaudi or Art Nouveau.

Back to the new tracks. Shanghai, Yas Marin, Sepang and Istanbul are all tracks that all have a pretty good recognition value. But what spoils their potential success is a strange artificial feel. I assume from this, that Tilke as many others is an architect that works computer-aided from the earliest stages of the design process. And it shows. Believe me or not, there is just no substitution for good old scribbling. This is also one of the reasons why modern architecure has failed in the eyes of many.

Just grab a pencil and try to draw over the layout of a circuit and you will feel the difference between a good and bad track immediately. Suzuka is a very good synergy of man-made precision and natural grace. The japanese were always pretty good at this, including architects and i really believe Suzukas resemblence to a caligraphic sign is no coincidence.

If i had to pick modern tracks that come closest to the authentic feel of classic tracks, i would go for Istanbul and Sepang. They are actually beautiful signs, but if you look a bit closer you find some rough edges that can't hide its origin. I think those two out of the modern tracks are also most popular with the drivers. It may well take just a brush or pencil to smooth out those edges. It's a pitty Tilke can't handle those tools.

PS: Sorry for the flawed english.

[What's Burning?]

The English is great so no sweat. You should give yourself an introduction in that thread so we can give you a proper welcomed.

I appreciate the attempt at architecture but one of the things that strikes me most about the new tracks is that they have a man made feel to them, I mean this in a deeper sense... I mean that they seem as if there was no regard for the land or what existed there previously. Whatever the designer wants wherever they want it can be built. I think tracks of old worked WITH the land to dictate the track and that's the one thing that feels missing in most of the Tilke designs.

There are "happy accidents" that develop sometimes, when you're not exerting an extreme level of control with your design over the land. (think Falling Water) The Corkscrew in Laguna Seca, Eau Rouge in Spa, things that weren't necessarily designed but simply happened as part of the build process.

[stonemonkey]

I have to agree with a lot of that, maybe not the logo analogy. I also feel Tilke designs his tracks as to funnel possible moves/attempts to specific parts of the circuit making it difficult for the drivers to be creative elsewhere on the track.

[Kai FT]

Ok then: Hi, I'm Kai, i'm 23 and i'm a real Nerd when it comes to F1. Watch every session, on multiple screens, live telemetry obviously, live commentry, 5live radio in one ear, poor legard in the other (one finger is always close to the mute button). So there you go, it looks ridiculous when i watch F1, but i don't care because i love it. Actually, i can't consider myself a real nerd, because i don't know really that much about the techy stuff, but at least i have got some basics covered with downforce, grip etc. Came here, because german forums are boring and i find people on english forums more knowledgable and also enthusiastic. So there you go.

I think you are right. The the great thing about good architecture (sorry to bother you with that) is that it takes advantage from the constraints (weather, surroundings, construction) and doesn't ignore them. And that is exactly what great circuits do as well. Just can't beat mother nature.

[Kai FT]

@stonemonkey

with the logotype i didn't mean the tracks should look like prancing horse for example, but that they should have the substantial features of a good logotype (recognition value, distinctive style, coherency). You have to admit that silhouettes of some of the greatest tracks like Nurburgring, Suzuka, Monza have become icons.

[Kai FT]

@stonemonkey

with the logotype i didn't mean the tracks should look like prancing horse for example, but that they should have the substantial features of a good logotype (recognition value, distinctive style, coherency). You have to admit that silhouettes of some of the greatest tracks like Nurburgring, Suzuka, Monza have become icons.

Sorry, i'm quite new in the forum business, now i know waht the quote button is for and i'll use it next time

[darwin dali]

@stonemonkey

with the logotype i didn't mean the tracks should look like prancing horse for example, but that they should have the substantial features of a good logotype (recognition value, distinctive style, coherency). You have to admit that silhouettes of some of the greatest tracks like Nurburgring, Suzuka, Monza have become icons.

Sorry, i'm quite new in the forum business, now i know waht the quote button is for and i'll use it next time

Kein Problem und willkommen

[kerc]

Seriously, loved that post, Kai.

I'm a full-time software developer, but my real passion is design, in any medium. Giugiaro, Van Der Rohe, Rams, Rand...Love 'em all. At least for me, your post makes a lot of sense. There's a certain coldness to computer design that only the real masters can override and let genius shine through.

[texasmr2]

To the OP they are not bad from my perspective and I have been following F1 for 31yr's and some here even longer. The only complaints you hear imho are from the newbies and naysayers who will never be satisfied and will always look for the negative, pessimist if I may, or something they think is boring only because they follow the crowd, sheep as it were.

A true love for F1 is something that cannot be explained and you either
get it or you don't.

[kerc]

To the OP they are not bad from my perspective and I have been following F1 for 31yr's and some here even longer. The only complaints you hear imho are from the newbies and naysayers who will never be satisfied and will always look for the negative, pessimist if I may, or something they think is boring only because they follow the crowd, sheep as it were.

A true love for F1 is something that cannot be explained and you either
get it or you don't.

So whoever doesn't think the same as you is a sheep? Check.

[texasmr2]

To the OP they are not bad from my perspective and I have been following F1 for 31yr's and some here even longer. The only complaints you hear imho are from the newbies and naysayers who will never be satisfied and will always look for the negative, pessimist if I may, or something they think is boring only because they follow the crowd, sheep as it were.

A true love for F1 is something that cannot be explained and you either
get it or you don't.

So whoever doesn't think the same as you is a sheep? Check.

As I mentioned it is only my opinion yet you had to go and be an idiot ???

[kerc]

To the OP they are not bad from my perspective and I have been following F1 for 31yr's and some here even longer. The only complaints you hear imho are from the newbies and naysayers who will never be satisfied and will always look for the negative, pessimist if I may, or something they think is boring only because they follow the crowd, sheep as it were.

A true love for F1 is something that cannot be explained and you either
get it or you don't.

So whoever doesn't think the same as you is a sheep? Check.

As I mentioned it is only my opinion yet you had to go and be an idiot ???

I can be the best idiot you can find. 100% USDA choice.

[texasmr2]

To the OP they are not bad from my perspective and I have been following F1 for 31yr's and some here even longer. The only complaints you hear imho are from the newbies and naysayers who will never be satisfied and will always look for the negative, pessimist if I may, or something they think is boring only because they follow the crowd, sheep as it were.

A true love for F1 is something that cannot be explained and you either
get it or you don't.

So whoever doesn't think the same as you is a sheep? Check.

As I mentioned it is only my opinion yet you had to go and be an idiot ???

I can be the best idiot you can find. 100% USDA choice.

So very true but instead of us argueing simply because of your misinterpretation lets get back to the subject at hand. Why do you think the modern tracks are so bad and the 'proposed' Austin track that supposedly mimics another is so bad? One that I must point out you have said "I will be there"? Hell I don't care about the layout or anyones opinion so that led to my reference of the sheep, hell us Ferrari fans get it all the times but really who gives a flying shag????

[What's Burning?]

mmm... Tex 31 years ago there were no Tilke F1 circuits so I'm missing your point.

[kerc]

So very true but instead of us argueing simply because of your misinterpretation lets get back to the subject at hand. Why do you think the modern tracks are so bad and the 'proposed' Austin track that supposedly mimics another is so bad? One that I must point out you have said "I will be there"? Hell I don't care about the layout or anyones opinion so that led to my reference of the sheep, hell us Ferrari fans get it all the times but really who gives a flying shag????

Thanks for the support. I don't take the internets far too seriously.

Back on subject, I cannot judge the Austin track until it's done. And I would be there even if it was designed like a figure-8 slot track. But it looks to be one of the best tracks to come form Tilke, especially seeing the nice elevation changes. So there's hope.

Most (not all) of his tracks border on dull for some reason...Maybe they're too thought out, and not organic enough. It's hard to pinpoint, and Kai's explanation here is one of the most valid arguments I've heard for explaining this Tilke phenomenon.