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[smokin]

I don't think he knew what the drive through was for in Hungary.
You could tell from what he said on the radio.
And if I were his race engineer, I wouldn't waste time explaining him what he did wrong. I would do that at the end of the race.
And I'm sure that is what happened.
So when the race was finished and Vettel was in the press conference he had pretty much no idea of what he did, also because it's pretty rare that rule gets broken.
And obviously.. he was leading and "something" gave the win to Webber, that "something" being breaking a rule he didn't remember doing; so of course he was irritated and felt like someone took the win away from him.
But I'm sure that as soon as he saw the footage of what happened (and maybe read the SC regulations) he accepted the blame for the mistake.

Vettel hasn't demonstrated that he's able to accept blame for his own mistakes and his team has done him no favours by supporting him when he's in the wrong.

[Peng]

And I just think Vettel has the talent to be just shy of them. If he hasn't used it all, that's not my fault.
But not many young drivers would place a Toro Rosso on pole at Monza in the rain, that's for sure.

As i have said previously i know he is talented and do hope he can become one of the greats as long as he doesn't turn into another Alonso.

But what is he good at currently? consistently putting in great qualifying laps which is also the reason you have stated why he is a top 3 driver.

The problem i have is what he is not good at which would be the following - 1. Starts 2. overtaking 3. strategy 4. defending 5. anger management 6. losing and probably a few others i cant think of since i am tired, he currently has the Alonso flaw which is when he becomes angry his driving gets worse.

Anyway what i am saying is he just isn't a complete driver yet so to state he is a top 3 driver when he is so terrible at pretty much anything but qualifying just makes me wonder how you can rate so many F1 drivers so badly.

[The Immortal Dragon]

And I just think Vettel has the talent to be just shy of them. If he hasn't used it all, that's not my fault.
But not many young drivers would place a Toro Rosso on pole at Monza in the rain, that's for sure.

The problem i have is what he is not good at which would be the following - 1. Starts 2. overtaking 3. strategy 4. defending 5. anger management 6. losing

1. he started worse than other cars, which might be due to different starting systems. He jumped Webber in Malaysia, he got jumped by the australian at Silverstone. Possibly they swapped positions at the start somewhere else, but I can't remember now.
2. pretty much everybody is not good at overtaking with the current cars and he fights for the WC, so he can't even really risk much.
3. Strategy? strategy is not decided only by the drivers, I don't really know what you mean exactly
4. I guess this is related to the starts
5. he is young and has a strong character (it's not an excuse)
6. drivers as a category don't like losing

[Peng]

1. he started worse than other cars, which might be due to different starting systems. He jumped Webber in Malaysia, he got jumped by the australian at Silverstone. Possibly they swapped positions at the start somewhere else, but I can't remember now.
2. pretty much everybody is not good at overtaking with the current cars and he fights for the WC, so he can't even really risk much.
3. Strategy? strategy is not decided only by the drivers, I don't really know what you mean exactly
4. I guess this is related to the starts
5. he is young and has a strong character (it's not an excuse)
6. drivers as a category don't like losing

1. The red bull car being worse at starts doesn't really have anything to do with him instantly turning to drive his opposition into a wall every single time he starts from pole that is just bad driving, he focuses too much on blocking his opponents and not enough on actually getting a good start which may change from what was said before the last race.

2. Several drivers have shown how to overtake this season Vettel generally doesn't try unless his car has a super advantage and even when he did in Hungary he didn't even try because he knew Alonso wasn't easy to overtake, don't blame him since the small amount of overtakes he has tried on similar speed cars he has crashed.
It is hard to overtake not impossible, and Hamilton is fighting for the WDC and yet he is currently the only driver who has overtaken everyone in the top 10.

3. Strategy isn't decided by only the drivers no but what i mean is he isn't an intelligent driver he relies way too much on his team and that is one reason why he has lost points because RBR clearly aren't as good as their rivals in that department.
Mclaren haven't exactly been great this season since Hamilton has lost quite a few points yet Button who is probably one of the most intelligent and tactical drivers on the grid has managed 2 wins due to his strategic decisions.

4. Not really although that in a way does show how bad he is, what i mean is when someone is trying to overtake him the best drivers are very hard to overtake because they don't panic but Vettel is as bad at defending as he is overtaking and usually it ends with him crashing.
Which is lucky for him this season since no car has really been able to challenge the red bulls.
Edit - A good example of bad defending was the Silverstone start this year, he messed it up and lost a position to Webber and than got too close to Hamilton because of the red mist.

5. Exactly i am glad we agree on one thing :p.

6. No one likes losing but most drivers will have a little moan and than get on with it Vettel isn't that bad yet but he isn't far from becoming Alonso.

[Hammer278]

On point 6. Impossible for anyone to match the great Alonso in this arena.

[smokin]

On point 6. Impossible for anyone to match the great Alonso in this arena.

[Robert12010]

On point 6. Impossible for anyone to match the great Alonso in this arena.

lol at that too

[wittgenfrog]

Like most people, I thought he was a keen young driver who took the rough with the smooth.
Here we are a bit later and him in the best car and he expects to win everything and blames everyone else when HE fails. These are annoying characteristics.
Of course he is focused and competitive and testosterone-fuelled and all those other adjectives used to excuse the primadonna behaviour of young sportsmen, but it i9s his stupidity which grates. Like others have said, he resembles Alonso most and that is not a good thing!

Sadly Newey's car is currently worth at least 1/2 a second a lap in the race, and more in qually, so the arrogant jerk may well win the Drivers' Championship....

[vaptin]

Alonso's got far more to this game than Vettel.

Vettel's shown a lot of talent and potential, he's a bit like Theo Walcott.

He just doesn't seem to cope with pressure that well (apart from quali), he's great at one lap qualifying but doesn't seem to have the aggression/stragety edge that the other top drivers have shown.

[The Immortal Dragon]

1. The red bull car being worse at starts doesn't really have anything to do with him instantly turning to drive his opposition into a wall every single time he starts from pole that is just bad driving, he focuses too much on blocking his opponents and not enough on actually getting a good start which may change from what was said before the last race.

2. Several drivers have shown how to overtake this season Vettel generally doesn't try unless his car has a super advantage and even when he did in Hungary he didn't even try because he knew Alonso wasn't easy to overtake, don't blame him since the small amount of overtakes he has tried on similar speed cars he has crashed.
It is hard to overtake not impossible, and Hamilton is fighting for the WDC and yet he is currently the only driver who has overtaken everyone in the top 10.

3. Strategy isn't decided by only the drivers no but what i mean is he isn't an intelligent driver he relies way too much on his team and that is one reason why he has lost points because RBR clearly aren't as good as their rivals in that department.
Mclaren haven't exactly been great this season since Hamilton has lost quite a few points yet Button who is probably one of the most intelligent and tactical drivers on the grid has managed 2 wins due to his strategic decisions.

4. Not really although that in a way does show how bad he is, what i mean is when someone is trying to overtake him the best drivers are very hard to overtake because they don't panic but Vettel is as bad at defending as he is overtaking and usually it ends with him crashing.
Which is lucky for him this season since no car has really been able to challenge the red bulls.
Edit - A good example of bad defending was the Silverstone start this year, he messed it up and lost a position to Webber and than got too close to Hamilton because of the red mist.

5. Exactly i am glad we agree on one thing :p.

6. No one likes losing but most drivers will have a little moan and than get on with it Vettel isn't that bad yet but he isn't far from becoming Alonso.

1. That's true, he shouldn't focus too much on the P2 driver, but I guess he'll learn (I hope for him, at least)

2. Hamilton does overtake, of course. But Hamilton did find himself out of the top 5 in more than one occasion, so in those instances he had little to lose, and therefore dared more. Vettel on the other hand has been, except for China, in the front places, so the risk he would have taken in overtaking would have been much greater. Obviously, Hamilton is still better at overtaking than him, no doubt.

3. Button is great in changing conditions throughout the race, I agree. His 2 wins were completely his own merit. But everybody else made the same mistake as Vettel did (at least in Australia & China), so it's not really just Vettel who is poor there.

[Peng]

3. Button is great in changing conditions throughout the race, I agree. His 2 wins were completely his own merit. But everybody else made the same mistake as Vettel did (at least in Australia & China), so it's not really just Vettel who is poor there.

True its the one thing that annoys me about Hamilton atm since he like Vettel is relying on the team to decide the strategy instead of feeling the car himself and changing the strategy on how he feels not what the team thinks, obviously the team is extremely important for strategy as the drivers cant see everything that is happening but at the same time the team aren't in the car so the driver needs to be able to change the strategy himself if things aren't going to work which is something very little drivers do.

Sadly Newey's car is currently worth at least 1/2 a second a lap in the race, and more in qually, so the arrogant jerk may well win the Drivers' Championship....

That is what is bugging me especially when people claim he is so great because of his qualifying pace a pace which no other team has really been able to touch because of how good Newey has been this season.

If anything Newey should be the one to win the WDC because neither red bull driver has really taken advantage of the gift they have been given so far this season, looking at all the races it seems impossible RBR could actually lose the the WDC or WCC this season and yet if Ferrari or Mclaren manage a miracle in the next few races it could be one of the biggest upsets ever.

[Big Azza]

Hey apparently the greatest driver in history, according to everyone on this site, had 65 Pole Positions and "only" 41 Race wins. He also was quite arrogant.

Sebastien Vettel has had 12 pole positions and only 7 wins, so he's a lot worse, but eventually he will improve. Wait until he gets 65 pole positions. He should be there within a few more years.

Interesting note: Schumacher has had 68 pole positions and 91 wins. And more than twice as much World Championships.

And Hamilton also has less race wins than pole positions. And a few of them have come from other drivers' misfortune, so his figure could be a lot "worse."

I really have an issue on this sight with unfounded bias.

[Gaz]

Hey apparently the greatest driver in history, according to everyone on this site, had 65 Pole Positions and "only" 41 Race wins. He also was quite arrogant.

Sebastien Vettel has had 12 pole positions and only 7 wins, so he's a lot worse, but eventually he will improve. Wait until he gets 65 pole positions. He should be there within a few more years.

Interesting note: Schumacher has had 68 pole positions and 91 wins. And more than twice as much World Championships.

And Hamilton also has less race wins than pole positions. And a few of them have come from other drivers' misfortune, so his figure could be a lot "worse."

I really have an issue on this sight with unfounded bias.

Senna wasn't arrogant.

your confusing arrogance and confidence.

oh and

I really have an issue on this sight with unfounded bias.

LOL

[The Immortal Dragon]

Where can you draw the line between confidence and arrogance?

[f1ea]

The starts are mostly down to the car. The bit that is down to the driver is to not catch a wing or make a bad defensive/offensive move after the car is launched. The start at Germany was prob the worst from Vettel, he had already lost the P1 to Alonso but made a bad move and lost both positions. Other than that, most of his starts have been similar to Webber's: inconsistent.

No doubt, Vettel should walking away with the WDC. He definitely has the "potential" (the car + him). But stuff has happened and so he is fighting with the rest. Including Webber, who is having the best run of his life... compared to Vettel who is having a poor one... so, Webber on his best, is about as good as Vettel on a poor one...

The move on Webber was not that impetuous; it ended up badly, but he was much faster than Webber and went for a reasonable move. It was his move and therefore his mistake to make... but Webber should have given him the room to make the move without contact... sure, he didnt have to because the've been tied in the standings and both on a good run... but sensibly speaking, he should have avoided contact, either by being faster than Vettel or by not being in the way. They really shouldn't have taken eachother out.

If anything Newey should be the one to win the WDC because neither red bull driver has really taken advantage of the gift they have been given so far this season, looking at all the races it seems impossible RBR could actually lose the the WDC or WCC this season and yet if Ferrari or Mclaren manage a miracle in the next few races it could be one of the biggest upsets ever.

Alonso's got far more to this game than Vettel.

Vettel's shown a lot of talent and potential, he's a bit like Theo Walcott.

He just doesn't seem to cope with pressure that well (apart from quali), he's great at one lap qualifying but doesn't seem to have the aggression/stragety edge that the other top drivers have shown.

There's definitely some potential to be "realized". Until then, he's just a promise.

On point 6. Impossible for anyone to match the great Alonso in this arena.

So, why laugh?
I thought that what this is all about.

Actually, if you (in general) look sensibly, you'd see Alonso only gets mad at situations that were "beyond his control". If he's the one making the mistake or allowing the loss... he simply puts the regular dissapointed face.