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[Hammer278]

If he's stepped aside, it means he has removed himself from the authority to advise?

[scotty]

Oh god not more paranoid conspiracy theories!

Hey there's a Spaniard and an Italian on the council too so they're DEFINITELY going to get away with it!

[What's Burning?]

Isn't it a bit odd to decide what the punishment will be BEFORE you have a hearing?

[racechick]

If he's stepped aside, it means he has removed himself from the authority to advise?

Mmm. Hopefully. but Im sure he has the ear of those making the decisions. So far he's ruled well against my expectations but this will be the decider. Having had such blatantly corupt governing from the FIA in the past its difficult to just leave that behind. Here's hoping.

[billindenver]

If they are going to apply the rule, I hope they apply it across the board and retroactively. Go through the old radio logs and find every time a team advised their driver as to the speed differential between him and his team mate behind him...and if that driver intentionally gave way...apply whatever penalty they give Ferrari to that team retroactively. WDC's will be lost and anarchy will ensue. This is the perfect time for the FIA to address this knee jerk rule put in place to quiet the ignorant masses after Rubins gave way to Michael half a decade ago. The FIA needs to use this hearing to make the statement that the rule against team orders is not enforceable and was ignorant at its inception...and from this point forward is stricken from the rulebook. I would be impressed if the FIA showed such 'attachments'...but that is as unlikely to happen as some of the draconian punishments suggested in here. Lets not forget, even though the McLaren fans call it blatant team orders... "Fernando is faster than you...acknowledge" simply can't be proven to be a team order unless Massa says as much...and despite being dog piled by that blatantly biased interviewer for SPEED (Will Buxton)....Massa has said no such thing.

Speaking of Buxton...he really does irritate me. I don't mind a broadcast team having a bias, and lets face it...SPEED's entire crew are Hamilton and McLaren fans...but to me any bias should be shown as positive bias for your favorite...as journalists (of sorts), I am irritated when they talk down about other teams, especially when their opinion is just that..and not a proven allegation. In today's quali, all they could talk about was Ferrari cheating with team orders and Ferrari cheating with front wings...and when the showed examples of other teams issuing what might be team orders...they somehow forgot the McLaren examples which were far more recent than the ones they included. Is it too much to ask for a little non-biased reporting? I hate Ferrari as much as the next guy..but seeing them piled on by Brits is starting to create a bit of a soft spot for the team. I'm kinda hoping for a Red Bull dogfight into turn one that lets both Ferrari's through. Ferrari, Ferrari, Red Bull, Red Bull, Mercedes, Renault, Renault, etc etc...Mclaren dnf's would be ideal...though I fully expect McLarens heavy weight performance to put Hammy into at least 4th by the end of lap 1. Perhaps Massa will do some good for this team for once by taking a couple of wheels off the McLaren on it's way past him before turn one.

[racechick]

If they are going to apply the rule, I hope they apply it across the board and retroactively. Go through the old radio logs and find every time a team advised their driver as to the speed differential between him and his team mate behind him...and if that driver intentionally gave way...apply whatever penalty they give Ferrari to that team retroactively. WDC's will be lost and anarchy will ensue. This is the perfect time for the FIA to address this knee jerk rule put in place to quiet the ignorant masses after Rubins gave way to Michael half a decade ago. The FIA needs to use this hearing to make the statement that the rule against team orders is not enforceable and was ignorant at its inception...and from this point forward is stricken from the rulebook. I would be impressed if the FIA showed such 'attachments'...but that is as unlikely to happen as some of the draconian punishments suggested in here. Lets not forget, even though the McLaren fans call it blatant team orders... "Fernando is faster than you...acknowledge" simply can't be proven to be a team order unless Massa says as much...and despite being dog piled by that blatantly biased interviewer for SPEED (Will Buxton)....Massa has said no such thing.

Speaking of Buxton...he really does irritate me. I don't mind a broadcast team having a bias, and lets face it...SPEED's entire crew are Hamilton and McLaren fans...but to me any bias should be shown as positive bias for your favorite...as journalists (of sorts), I am irritated when they talk down about other teams, especially when their opinion is just that..and not a proven allegation. In today's quali, all they could talk about was Ferrari cheating with team orders and Ferrari cheating with front wings...and when the showed examples of other teams issuing what might be team orders...they somehow forgot the McLaren examples which were far more recent than the ones they included. Is it too much to ask for a little non-biased reporting? I hate Ferrari as much as the next guy..but seeing them piled on by Brits is starting to create a bit of a soft spot for the team. I'm kinda hoping for a Red Bull dogfight into turn one that lets both Ferrari's through. Ferrari, Ferrari, Red Bull, Red Bull, Mercedes, Renault, Renault, etc etc...Mclaren dnf's would be ideal...though I fully expect McLarens heavy weight performance to put Hammy into at least 4th by the end of lap 1. Perhaps Massa will do some good for this team for once by taking a couple of wheels off the McLaren on it's way past him before turn one.

Ok, so you dont like Mclaren -why not just say that and save all the typing.

[myownalias]

OK, we are in the middle of the next race; let's put this discussion to bed until we hear the outcome of the WMSC meeting whenever that happens.

But yes; the F1 shows whoever makes them will focus on the controversy; why? because it gets viewers; no matter which way you carve it; controversy will attract more viewers/readers, both regular F1 followers and new viewers/readers. Just look at this forum, since the latest Ferrari scandal; look at how many new members have joined the forum to add their two cents. The BBC and SPEED have concentrated on the team orders and flexible wings because it's what will win the battle of the TV ratings.

I don't believe there is such a thing as non-biased opinion, in journalism or otherwise!

[Peng]

If they are going to apply the rule, I hope they apply it across the board and retroactively. Go through the old radio logs and find every time a team advised their driver as to the speed differential between him and his team mate behind him...and if that driver intentionally gave way...apply whatever penalty they give Ferrari to that team retroactively. WDC's will be lost and anarchy will ensue. This is the perfect time for the FIA to address this knee jerk rule put in place to quiet the ignorant masses after Rubins gave way to Michael half a decade ago. The FIA needs to use this hearing to make the statement that the rule against team orders is not enforceable and was ignorant at its inception...and from this point forward is stricken from the rulebook. I would be impressed if the FIA showed such 'attachments'...but that is as unlikely to happen as some of the draconian punishments suggested in here. Lets not forget, even though the McLaren fans call it blatant team orders... "Fernando is faster than you...acknowledge" simply can't be proven to be a team order unless Massa says as much...and despite being dog piled by that blatantly biased interviewer for SPEED (Will Buxton)....Massa has said no such thing.

Speaking of Buxton...he really does irritate me. I don't mind a broadcast team having a bias, and lets face it...SPEED's entire crew are Hamilton and McLaren fans...but to me any bias should be shown as positive bias for your favorite...as journalists (of sorts), I am irritated when they talk down about other teams, especially when their opinion is just that..and not a proven allegation. In today's quali, all they could talk about was Ferrari cheating with team orders and Ferrari cheating with front wings...and when the showed examples of other teams issuing what might be team orders...they somehow forgot the McLaren examples which were far more recent than the ones they included. Is it too much to ask for a little non-biased reporting? I hate Ferrari as much as the next guy..but seeing them piled on by Brits is starting to create a bit of a soft spot for the team. I'm kinda hoping for a Red Bull dogfight into turn one that lets both Ferrari's through. Ferrari, Ferrari, Red Bull, Red Bull, Mercedes, Renault, Renault, etc etc...Mclaren dnf's would be ideal...though I fully expect McLarens heavy weight performance to put Hammy into at least 4th by the end of lap 1. Perhaps Massa will do some good for this team for once by taking a couple of wheels off the McLaren on it's way past him before turn one.

The rule in question is - Article 39.1 "team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited".

Asking both drivers to conserve fuel so that they don't run out before the end of the race isn't exactly interfering with a race result especially when during that fuel saving time neither driver overtakes or is overtaken.

The rule clearly states only team orders that interfere with something like the finishing order of the cars is prohibited and thats why Ferrari were found guilty and hopefully get a bigger penalty than the fine.

Seriously stop being biased towards teams or stop complaining about other people being biased because it makes you sound like a nonce.

[vaptin]

[quote="Peng"
The rule in question is - Article 39.1 "team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited".

Asking both drivers to conserve fuel so that they don't run out before the end of the race isn't exactly interfering with a race result especially when during that fuel saving time neither driver overtakes or is overtaken.

The rule clearly states only team orders that interfere with something like the finishing order of the cars is prohibited and thats why Ferrari were found guilty and hopefully get a bigger penalty than the fine.
.[/quote]

The problem is, thats unenforceable if taken literally. Ferrari could argue Alonso would've gone past Massa anyway, if the FIA don't accept that, I think the reverse argument that applies to "save fuel" can also be applied.

If its illegal to tell one team-mate to overtake another, it should be equally illegal to tell one team mate not to overtake the other.

[Peng]

If its illegal to tell one team-mate to overtake another, it should be equally illegal to tell one team mate not to overtake the other.

Don't think any teams have clearly told 1 of their drivers that the other wouldn't or couldn't overtake except maybe the Button + Hamilton incident in Turkey which actually ended in Button overtaking anyways :p.

My point was telling both drivers to save on fuel is a team order but the only real way its going to affect the race is if 2 drivers are for example in a 1-2 position and the driver infront is told to save on fuel and the driver behind is told to push and causes that causes them to swap places, which in my opinion would be illegal because its the same as telling a driver to slow down and let your team mate pass.

The rule maybe does have to be removed as it seems like most people either don't understand it or think all team orders should apply but i personally would stop watching F1 if we started seeing teams favouring 1 driver every season and pulling the stupid crap that happened in Germany every few races because it would ruin the sport.

[vaptin]

Yes, but an instruction to save fuel when one team mate is coming up behind faster could be interpreted as a "coded message", which is the entire problem with the rule. If Ferrari preformed this more subtly, they would've skipped away scott free.

[Peng]

Yes, but an instruction to save fuel when one team mate is coming up behind faster could be interpreted as a "coded message", which is the entire problem with the rule. If Ferrari preformed this more subtly, they would've skipped away scott free.

True but saying something along the lines of "there is a pigeon in new malta" could also be a coded message for the same thing, doesn't mean that Mclaren should be penalized for team orders retroactively if Ferrari get a harsher penalty which was my point towards Bill.

As i said maybe the rule needs to be removed but would you enjoy watching F1 if all teams acted the way Ferrari did in Germany? seems a bit pointless to me to have 2 drivers per team if you are only going to be helping 1 driver to actually win.

[vaptin]

It's not visually great no, but from the teams point of view its the best thing.

It might even work out for the fans in the long run if Alonso gets together a real title push.

[What's Burning?]

If they are going to apply the rule, I hope they apply it across the board and retroactively. Go through the old radio logs and find every time a team advised their driver as to the speed differential between him and his team mate behind him...and if that driver intentionally gave way...apply whatever penalty they give Ferrari to that team retroactively. WDC's will be lost and anarchy will ensue. This is the perfect time for the FIA to address this knee jerk rule put in place to quiet the ignorant masses after Rubins gave way to Michael half a decade ago. The FIA needs to use this hearing to make the statement that the rule against team orders is not enforceable and was ignorant at its inception...and from this point forward is stricken from the rulebook. I would be impressed if the FIA showed such 'attachments'...but that is as unlikely to happen as some of the draconian punishments suggested in here. Lets not forget, even though the McLaren fans call it blatant team orders... "Fernando is faster than you...acknowledge" simply can't be proven to be a team order unless Massa says as much...and despite being dog piled by that blatantly biased interviewer for SPEED (Will Buxton)....Massa has said no such thing.

Speaking of Buxton...he really does irritate me. I don't mind a broadcast team having a bias, and lets face it...SPEED's entire crew are Hamilton and McLaren fans...but to me any bias should be shown as positive bias for your favorite...as journalists (of sorts), I am irritated when they talk down about other teams, especially when their opinion is just that..and not a proven allegation. In today's quali, all they could talk about was Ferrari cheating with team orders and Ferrari cheating with front wings...and when the showed examples of other teams issuing what might be team orders...they somehow forgot the McLaren examples which were far more recent than the ones they included. Is it too much to ask for a little non-biased reporting? I hate Ferrari as much as the next guy..but seeing them piled on by Brits is starting to create a bit of a soft spot for the team. I'm kinda hoping for a Red Bull dogfight into turn one that lets both Ferrari's through. Ferrari, Ferrari, Red Bull, Red Bull, Mercedes, Renault, Renault, etc etc...Mclaren dnf's would be ideal...though I fully expect McLarens heavy weight performance to put Hammy into at least 4th by the end of lap 1. Perhaps Massa will do some good for this team for once by taking a couple of wheels off the McLaren on it's way past him before turn one.

I'm pretty sure we saw the same broadcast on SPEED. I saw nothing of that, on the contrary Steve Matchett expressed his belief that the rule is not needed and not enforceable and on the hour long F1 preview show they actually said I think it was David Hobbs that he felt the no order rule was put in place for the NON real F1 fans because the real F1 fans understood how teams operated. And IF we're watching the same show, you know they are BIG Vettle fans and have a deep relationship with Red Bull since they do all of those technical series shorts with them... not just Lewis fans.

[What's Burning?]

Yes, but an instruction to save fuel when one team mate is coming up behind faster could be interpreted as a "coded message", which is the entire problem with the rule. If Ferrari preformed this more subtly, they would've skipped away scott free.

But they didn't which says that Ferrari doesn't give a crap about anyone but the best interests of Ferrari, I think it was AKR that posted, and she WOULD KNOW that... the Enzo Ferrari philosophy was, If Ferrari wins, the cars win, if Ferrari loses, the drivers lose.

The fact that they did it so ham fisted say either that Ferrari just could give two sheets about what the fans think or that Massa and Smedley were so incensed by the order that they wanted to make it as obvious as they possibly could, both in the radio message and in the execution of a slowdown.

Personally I think it was a bit of both.