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[bud]

they wont ban them as a GP without Ferrari would cost too much. I think they will either lose constructor points or a bigger fine. I dont see them changing the drivers points. But having them both DSQ for Germany is a possibility.

[What's Burning?]

At this point we're better off discussing how the rule will be changed next year.

[Gaz]

Oh but it is the same according to most of you. In the spirit of motorracing and racing in general, team orders are bad fo the fans. It's cheating no matter what. This is what your saying. It doesn't matter if it is f1 orWRC. Racing is racing and the principles are the same for all. My statement regarding the WRC cannot be rebutted. Either team ordersate illegal and bothe Ferrari and Citroën are cheats or it's the other way around. You cannot pick and choose. It's one or the other very simple. So now choose and don't evade the question. Can you confirm ate loeb and Citroën therefore cheats like Ferrari for using team orders?

No its not, WRC is about driving fast over a course F1 is about overtaking aswell as being fast.

Alonso may of been faster but to win you need to overtake and he could not overtake as Massa was defending well.

But thats not really the point, the point is Team Orders were removed after Austria 2002 after Ferrari brought the sport into disrupute.

They have done this yet again but this time team orders are illigal.

They can do what they want in WRC as team orders are allowed there.

In F1 they are banned Ferrari used them and thefore broke the sports rules, if this was Mclaren you would be screaming for a disqualifaction or somthing simlar.

Your team ruined a race by engineering a victory its not like 2002 when it was either a Ferrari or the other Ferrari going to win, this time it could of been Vettle, Alonso or Massa would could of won and that is why team orders must remain illigal.

As a result Ferrari must be punished severly as to stop this happening again.

[AKR]

Oh but it is the same according to most of you. In the spirit of motorracing and racing in general, team orders are bad fo the fans. It's cheating no matter what. This is what your saying. It doesn't matter if it is f1 orWRC. Racing is racing and the principles are the same for all. My statement regarding the WRC cannot be rebutted. Either team ordersate illegal and bothe Ferrari and Citroën are cheats or it's the other way around. You cannot pick and choose. It's one or the other very simple. So now choose and don't evade the question. Can you confirm ate loeb and Citroën therefore cheats like Ferrari for using team orders?

No its not, WRC is about driving fast over a course F1 is about overtaking aswell as being fast.

Alonso may of been faster but to win you need to overtake and he could not overtake as Massa was defending well.

But thats not really the point, the point is Team Orders were removed after Austria 2002 after Ferrari brought the sport into disrupute.

They have done this yet again but this time team orders are illigal.

They can do what they want in WRC as team orders are allowed there.

In F1 they are banned Ferrari used them and thefore broke the sports rules, if this was Mclaren you would be screaming for a disqualifaction or somthing simlar.

Your team ruined a race by engineering a victory its not like 2002 when it was either a Ferrari or the other Ferrari going to win, this time it could of been Vettle, Alonso or Massa would could of won and that is why team orders must remain illigal.

As a result Ferrari must be punished severly as to stop this happening again.

No Gaz, there is only one right or wrong answer, Picking and chosing cannot be and you know it. Motor racing is motor racing and team orders cost Hirvonen the 2009 WRC title. It may or not make the difference to Alonso, but if Alonso wins by a small margin (Even though unlikely) he would of won in the same circumstances as Loeb. So according to your argument, team orders are cheating, then thus Loeb and Citroen are cheats just like Alonso and Ferrari. There can only be one answer. One or the other. You can't pick and chose to your liking. Thus going further to the Taliban topic. Accoring to this then (If according to you then in WRC it is ok to use team orders but in F1 it is not) then if the Taliban say it is legal to r@pe and kill in their controlled lands, then I guess it is and every else it isn't because according to you, you are allowed to have to sets of standards as long as it isn't in the same place/country/territory or if you want to be specific to motor racing, then the same organisation/sporting code. No matter what you say, the only way you can win this argument is to now concede that both Loeb and Citroen are also cheats for using team orders. I know you will not concede this ever thus I stand correct in my argument that team orders in all motorsports is not cheating.

[bud]

what the hell are you on about?

There is a rule in F1 to ban team orders that affect the outcome of a race. There isnt in WRC so sorry your argument is wrong.

[billindenver]

They will not take any points, will not fine them and will reverse the biased decision of the stewards. That's my take. For laps on end the Ferrari pit wall was telling Massa to step up his pace, pull out a gap....over and over again they told him this. Then they asked him to confirm that Alonso was faster...and he chose to allow him through rather than respond to the pit wall. At no time did the team tell him to move over. Massa's refusal to answer the ignorant and slanted questions asked in the interview afterwards was what caused Ferrari's problems here. Massa intentionally made it seem like the team was ordering him....but when you look at what the team said (I went back last night and watched the SPEED feed of the race on tivo), the team was only trying to move him forward. Vettel had just set two fastest laps in a row and the team had plenty of reason to worry that Vettel was on a charge.

Massa fornicated the pooch on this one. His team should be furious with him. They tried repeatedly all race long to get him to step it up....and he got tired of hearing it so he threw a Brazilian style tantrum on track and then pouted in the interview afterwards. Poor victim Massa. After watching it for the second time, and getting the entire interview on the Speed feed, I think Massa may have caught the Fernando/Lewis cry baby whining bug. Pretty pathetic display for a driver making millions.

The McLaren 'official team wannabe's' are up in arms over the Ferrari pit wall asking Massa to confirm that Alonso was faster, yet they didn't mind the McLaren wall word for word doing the same thing to earn their driver the WDC by moving Heiki out of his way. Ron Dennis said "we only advise our drivers on their respective speeds' or something similar..which is precisely what Ferrari did. Next week the same could happen the other way around and the Ferrari fanatics will be all over McLaren for it....while the 'official team members' defend the action. Team rivalry is a great thing, you just have to take the ranting and posturing with a grain of salt. In the end, Ferrari is going to show a transcript of exactly what they said to Massa....probably a few hundred transcripts of other teams doing the same....and then say tell us exactly what we did wrong. End of story, nothing proven....charges dismissed, cue the McLaren cry session.

[What's Burning?]

Your scapegoat in this really is Massa?

[AKR]

they wont ban them as a GP without Ferrari would cost too much. I think they will either lose constructor points or a bigger fine. I dont see them changing the drivers points. But having them both DSQ for Germany is a possibility.

Nothing will happen because the use of a coded message is an assumption and cannot be proved. No matter how fine a line it is and how obvious it appears. The words "Alonso is faster than you, can you confirm this" means just that. And Massa then slowed to his own accord to let Alonso through. In a court of law you will need precise and clear evidence. Assumption is no more than an accusation. There is a saying "Assumption is the mother of all fvckups". The stewrads fined Ferrari on assumption. Ferrari haven't appealed it because they are facing court/a meeting with the WMSC so it will be sorted then and there. Get your hopes up all you want, but be assured nothing will happen unless Massa admits to using a team order. But also rest assured if he did that, that he would be fired 100% guranteed.

By the way on another note, if Ferrari were penalised, disqualification is unlikely as Ferrari would of gotten a 1 -2 finish anyway. I would say a 20 second penaty to both drivers would be more suitable. But that would be bad for McLaren. Because it would promote Vettel and Red Bull to first and McLaren would stil be 4th and 5th. It would mean Vettel and Red Bull would furthe close the gap to McLaren's lead in both championships. So if it would mean the difference between McLaren winning or losing both titles in the end to Red Bull, then be my guest, punish Ferrari. You are so blind it isn't funny. You talk about fairness and racing, but everyone else in the sport talks business. Before you talk your usual crap here is something to think about. Why do you thing McLaren's Martin Whitmarsh made no public statement about Ferrari on the topic and chose to speak to Ferrari in private. Clealry he doesn't want Ferrari penalised as it doesn't suit McLaren. Even your team's boss is a smart business man. He isn't an idoit like some of the fans. Get this in your head. F1 is a business. Just like everything in this world which makes it go around.

[bud]

The McLaren 'official team wannabe's'

Bill go away would you! you have a go at my post count, my personally signed avatar, now my team member sig! seriously mate would you just f***ing leave me alone!!! im sick of you!!

and go on and have a whinge.... oh look he swore he should be banned bla bla bla mate you deserve everything you get! go to hell!



and mods i am fed up with the harassment from this w***er!

[f1ea]

what the hell are you on about?

There is a rule in F1 to ban team orders that affect the outcome of a race. There isnt in WRC so sorry your argument is wrong.

This is the reason why there is any argument at all. It is true. There is a rule to prevent it, and it happened. Now the question is what the punishment should be, provided that its been done before to no punishment (ie see the MULTIPLE examples of it happening in other teams and other times).... and that there is no set punishment for it.

I think...... the rule is stupid because its a contradiction to what F1 is at the moment: a team sport. We all fail to see it, because we like heroes and like to think x driver is the best... but seriously: its a team sport. The best driver is scratch in a crap car/team. And a mediocre driver gets very good results in the best team. Except Kovalainen hehe but there was something seriously wrong and unexplainable about his Mclaren fiasco!

[AKR]

what the hell are you on about?

There is a rule in F1 to ban team orders that affect the outcome of a race. There isnt in WRC so sorry your argument is wrong.

Then the rule is either wrong in F1 or missing in WRC. Motor racing principles are the same for all. Either F1 is wrong or WRC is wrong. Which one is it? Confirm. If you say F1 is wrong (That banning team orders is stupid) then Ferrari are not cheats and neither are Citroen. If WRC are wrong (for not banning team orders to begin with) then both Ferrari and Citroen are cheats. Choose one or the other. Chosing differently for either sport is contractive and you know it.

[What's Burning?]

they wont ban them as a GP without Ferrari would cost too much. I think they will either lose constructor points or a bigger fine. I dont see them changing the drivers points. But having them both DSQ for Germany is a possibility.

Nothing will happen because the use of a coded message is an assumption and cannot be proved. No matter how fine a line it is and how obvious it appears. The words "Alonso is faster than you, can you confirm this" means just that. And Massa then slowed to his own accord to let Alonso through. In a court of law you will need precise and clear evidence. Assumption is no more than an accusation. There is a saying "Assumption is the mother of all fvckups". The stewrads fined Ferrari on assumption. Ferrari haven't appealed it because they are facing court/a meeting with the WMSC so it will be sorted then and there. Get your hopes up all you want, but be assured nothing will happen unless Massa admits to using a team order. But also rest assured if he did that, that he would be fired 100% guranteed.

By the way on another note, if Ferrari were penalised, disqualification is unlikely as Ferrari would of gotten a 1 -2 finish anyway. I would say a 20 second penaty to both drivers would be more suitable. But that would be bad for McLaren. Because it would promote Vettel and Red Bull to first and McLaren would stil be 4th and 5th. It would mean Vettel and Red Bull would furthe close the gap to McLaren's lead in both championships. So if it would mean the difference between McLaren winning or losing both titles in the end to Red Bull, then be my guest, punish Ferrari. You are so blind it isn't funny. You talk about fairness and racing, but everyone else in the sport talks business. Before you talk your usual crap here is something to think about. Why do you thing McLaren's Martin Whitmarsh made no public statement about Ferrari on the topic and chose to speak to Ferrari in private. Clealry he doesn't want Ferrari penalised as it doesn't suit McLaren. Even your team's boss is a smart business man. He isn't an idoit like some of the fans. Get this in your head. F1 is a business. Just like everything in this world which makes it go around.

You make a good point about the possibility of a time penalty, it's something I hadn't considered. I think though that it's a forced hand and they will see a penalty of some sort and it may be harsh simply because there is no option to do otherwise.

The other thing here is that this is F1, there is now law per se, it's not a similar comparison to criminal law. So i don't believe proof is actually necessary, just the intent or the implication. In this case made obvious by the way it was executed.

[bud]

what the hell are you on about?

There is a rule in F1 to ban team orders that affect the outcome of a race. There isnt in WRC so sorry your argument is wrong.

Then the rule is either wrong in F1 or missing in WRC. Motor racing principles are the same for all. Either F1 is wrong or WRC is wrong. Which one is it? Confirm. If you say F1 is wrong (That banning team orders is stupid) then Ferrari are not cheats and neither are Citroen. If WRC are wrong (for not banning team orders to begin with) then both Ferrari and Citroen are cheats. Choose one or the other. Chosing differently for either sport is contractive and you know it.

sorry there are rules that exist in F1 that dont exist in other series. saying there is a greater rule book is wrong! One rule that exists in F1 is "no team orders that affect the outcome of a race" Ferrari broke this rule and were punished. I dont see how we can say other wise.

[AKR]

The McLaren 'official team wannabe's'

Bill go away would you! you have a go at my post count, my personally signed avatar, now my team member sig! seriously mate would you just f***ing leave me alone!!! im sick of you!!

and go on and have a whinge.... oh look he swore he should be banned bla bla bla mate you deserve everything you get! go to hell!



and mods i am fed up with the harassment from this w***er!

Billindever I wouldn't worry anymore about what bud says. He has basically been corned and has lost the argument. He cannot validily counter anything. We both better stop because I know how bud reacts to losing. He gets aggressive. But hey its understandable because no body like to lose. But what can I say. CHECKMATE bud.

[Hammer278]

NIce try billidenver but you conveniently let slip the radio transmissions after Massa "put on his tantrum". What about "Sorry mate" and "You're very magnanimous, you don't know that word but I'll explain it later"...

They just gave their game away right there so your logic (although very strong and can be put to work) is thrown out the window and no longer an option for Ferrari. They gave away the fact that the order given before Massa put on his tantrum was coded, so game over...