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[AKR]

Oh but it is the same according to most of you. In the spirit of motorracing and racing in general, team orders are bad fo the fans. It's cheating no matter what. This is what your saying. It doesn't matter if it is f1 orWRC. Racing is racing and the principles are the same for all. My statement regarding the WRC cannot be rebutted. Either team ordersate illegal and bothe Ferrari and Citroën are cheats or it's the other way around. You cannot pick and choose. It's one or the other very simple. So now choose and don't evade the question. Can you confirm ate loeb and Citroën therefore cheats like Ferrari for using team orders?

Ferrari are not remotely guilty. This is a waste of time. And regardless
of the driver order they got a deserved one two. But as I said before if Ferrari are guilty then so are Citroën and Loeb in the WRC. I noticed how my previous statement has been evaded.Does this mean no one can rebute this. Of course not which means Ferrari are also not guilty.

In the 2009 WRC Championship Loeb ended up winning the drivers title by 2 points over Ford rival Hirvonen. There was a rally (I cannot remember the exact one although I did watch every single rally in 2009) where Loeb crashed and was out of the points and Hirvonen was leading. Loeb's Citroen was repaired but he was out of the points. All Citroen drivers were then ordered to slow down to allow Citroen's Loeb the highest possible placing. Hirvonen one this rally but Loeb scored valueable points thanks to team orders which is a very normal everyday occurance in the WRC just so you know. These points proved crucial in the end as Loeb won the title in the last rally of the season by a mere 2 points. This team order was allowed in WRC like in all other motor sports and no one including Ford and Hirvonen protested. It is normal to do this. From what I have been reading on this forum mostly, team orders are cheating and shouldn't be used. Thus as a Ford fan in the WRC should I now conclude that Loeb as well is a cheat and shouldn't be WRC champion of 2009 and that in fact it should be Ford's Mirko Hirvonen? Ummm I don't reallyh think so. All have a good day and happy futile arguing among yourselves

You can not compare F1 and WRC

Team orders are allowed in WRC and Banned F1

Its like saying Ferrari can use a ford focus for hungary because its allowed in the WRC.

Ferrari cheated not just a little bit Smeldy might of well said "massa, domanicali says if you don't move over, your sacked"

[AKR]

...You can not compare F1 and WRC....

Too late, he already did.

It is a SHE by the way.

[PartsaS]

are you saying people that disagree with it aren't intelligent enough to understand it?

Those who disagree aren't cold enough to understand it. And you have to be intelligent and honest to be cold enough. When people are dreaming of rainbows and romanticism they are not cold... they are clouded.

Ferrari needed that. Whoever doesnt see it is either dishonest or simply dumb, or pretending... maybe by the heat of the moment, but nonetheless...

lets do some parabolic thinking

Ok lets say I robbed a bank and they cought me, so the court have found me guilty, so did the majority of the world.

Obviously I would had a great benefit of my action and I had a very good reason to do it,but they cought me!

with your logic those who found me guilty aren't cold enough to understand me. Futhermore insteed been intelligent and

honest they are romantics becouse they don't understand I had every reason to do so, becouse I needed the money....

mmmm????


sorry if I sound ''romantic'' but ferrari robbed us, and has been found guilty for that!


(sorry for my english)

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

...You can not compare F1 and WRC....

Too late, he already did.

It is a SHE by the way.

My apologies. I'll make it up to you when next we meet.

[f1ea]

lets do some parabolic thinking

Ok lets say I robbed a bank and they cought me, so the court have found me guilty, so did the majority of the world.
Obviously I would had a great benefit of my action and I had a very good reason to do it,but they cought me!
with your logic those who found me guilty aren't cold enough to understand me. Futhermore insteed been intelligent and
honest they are romantics becouse they don't understand I had every reason to do so, becouse I needed the money....

mmmm????


sorry if I sound ''romantic'' but ferrari robbed us, and has been found guilty for that!
(sorry for my english)

Oh dont worry about your english.

1) Let's say you killed a person. The family of such person will want to give you 'the chair'. Obviously because at the time of the death they are desperately looking for revenge. Turns out, you didnt really kill such person. Something happened, whatever... the person died.

2) Let's say you were hungry and ate a cow. Turns out this was the cow of somebody else. When the owner of the cow finds out you ate it, he shoots you. Next day he realizes you had 50 cows but ate that one because you thought it was your cow and you would have easily replaced his, with a better one.

3) Did you see/read "the green mile"?

You see, its very easy to have a clouded jugement.

[What's Burning?]

lets do some parabolic thinking

Ok lets say I robbed a bank and they cought me, so the court have found me guilty, so did the majority of the world.
Obviously I would had a great benefit of my action and I had a very good reason to do it,but they cought me!
with your logic those who found me guilty aren't cold enough to understand me. Futhermore insteed been intelligent and
honest they are romantics becouse they don't understand I had every reason to do so, becouse I needed the money....

mmmm????


sorry if I sound ''romantic'' but ferrari robbed us, and has been found guilty for that!
(sorry for my english)

Oh dont worry about your english.

1) Let's say you killed a person. The family of such person will want to give you 'the chair'. Obviously because at the time of the death they are desperately looking for revenge. Turns out, you didnt really kill such person. Something happened, whatever... the person died.

2) Let's say you were hungry and ate a cow. Turns out this was the cow of somebody else. When the owner of the cow finds out you ate it, he shoots you. Next day he realizes you had 50 cows but ate that one because you thought it was your cow and you would have easily replaced his, with a better one.

3) Did you see/read "the green mile"?

You see, its very easy to have a clouded jugement.

Wait I'm confused are we still talking about the Ferrari team order incident in Hockenheim? because I didn't see cows or bank robberies on the feed we got here stateside.

[Hammer278]

[PartsaS]

Wait I'm confused are we still talking about the Ferrari team order incident in Hockenheim? because I didn't see cows or bank robberies on the feed we got here stateside.

ok, sorry I started this stupid thing, but It ended pretty amusing!

[smokin]

Cows and bank robberies are two of Bernie's suggestions for introducing more overtaking in F1 next season. They were given a trial run at Hockenheim but you only got the feed on the Lone Star channel.

[What's Burning?]

SMART, that's what they must be planning for Austin 2012. It's all making sense now, thanks fellas.

[vmaxjon]

I am so incensed about the attitude of Ferrari towards this blatant act that I feel like switching off, I see Brawn is having his say now as well and you know the WMSC will do nothing about it because of Todt's association with Ferrari, it's a disgrace.

Why should we the loyal fans of the sport be treated with such disregard, I felt the same about the Austrian incident , Piquet's deliberate crash and now this perhaps its one scandal to far for me...

Disgusted of Solihull...

[Juliet P]

Right, 29 pages of thread and I think we've successfully debated the issues several times, in long, repetitive analysis of the arguments. Probably time to agree to disagree, focus on Hungary and await the verdict of the WMSC.

[AKR]

This whole discussion was a fruitless one. In the end you cannot even prove Ferrari used team orders. Coded message or not there is no clear proof and that's a fact. "Alonso is quicker than you do you confirm" means exactly that and nothing more. Massa then moved over on his own accord which us allowed so proove it. But in relation to team orders, let's use say Ferrari used them witout a doubt, then if we are to agree that they are wrong and unfair, then thus should apply to all motorsports. Now if anyone wishes to challenge me on this feel free to do so but I'm quite certain no one will be able to rebut what I'm about to write. With what I'm about to write I'm in to win no matter what because I know know one will be able to choose and with the facts I'm about to write you won't be able to pick and choose. Here goes.

In afganistan for example. There are 2 groups of people who control sections of the country. The country's legitimate government and the Taliban. In the Taliban controlled regions it is ok to **** and kill. In the regions under the government it is illegal to **** and kill. But if a **** or murder happens in the Taliban area according to their laws it is ok. But not ok anywhere else. So what is the case here? Should we assume that because Taliban laws say it is ok to **** and kill is ok, so long as it happens in their juristiction then it's ok. But if it happens elsewhere it isn't. We all know that in reality it isn't ok, no matter what Taliban laws believe. Thus the fact that you can have only one or the other. It's either ok to **** and kill or it is not. You can't pick and choose here now can you?

It is the same with team orders. Motorsport principles are the same everywhere. It doesn't matter if it is F1 or WRC. If team orders are cheating, then it's cheating in F1 and WRC. If it's not then it'd the same for both sports. So either Ferrari and Citroën are cheats for using team orders or they are not cheats. It's one or the other and there cannot be 2 different answers. If you cannot decide then you don't really know, it's that plain simple. So confirm to me now, which is it, Ferrari and Citroën are cheats for using team orders or they are not? If you cannot answer then I'm afraid that it will be checkmate for you and my point stands unrebutted.

[bud]

This whole discussion was a fruitless one. In the end you cannot even prove Ferrari used team orders.

In the end whether you like to believe it or not they did use a team order, the stewards punished them for it and the WMSC may yet still give further punishment.

[vaptin]

I agree that we've pretty much debated the incident itself to death.

Shall we move on?

What punishement will/should the WMSC give?

I'll think it'll be a hefty fine and a points dedication, though don't ask me how much.

I suspect Ferrari will appeal though.