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[Jabberwocky]

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/07/p ... -yourself/

interesting... I like to see that the teams are after "clarity" so they will copy it or not.

[What's Burning?]

Easier to copy than the F-duct... probably every team on the grid will have them by September, the more capable ones may even have a prototype this weekend.

[f1ea]

I thought Ferrari had it as well ?

Well, it doesnt show from the pics if the wing is just convex, or if its actually flexing. There was an issue a couple yrs ago when Mclaren had something similar with theirs... in any case, it has been clerared by FIA.

<edit> here's an article about it http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/24428.html

[Jabberwocky]

If I remember from school physics which was a few years away. I would imagine some sort of hooks law thing is going on.

[What's Burning?]

If I remember from school physics which was a few years away. I would imagine some sort of hooks law thing is going on.

There has to be a progressive element to it, yes. Like a spring in order for it to work. May just be an elastic type of material embedded into the carbon fiber of the wing platforms. or just a difference in the orientation of the carbon fibers.

[f1ea]

If I remember from school physics which was a few years away. I would imagine some sort of hooks law thing is going on.

Force = k * displacement

if its the same material as the other ones, guess it'll have to do with the cross section of the wing to vary 'k'... so since it is quite possibly carbon fibre as the others; it could be hollow-cored (to decrease 'k') and get more displacement for the same force.

But i doubt its as simple as that. It could also be hollow cored, with a bar of a different material to allow for bending without the wing breaking. Because i think carbon fibre is not too flexible by itself, so the other material absorbs the bending stress...

Its interesting.
But everyone thought Red Bull had some funky suspension... turns out it was the exhaust and bottom. Newey got everyone caught duckling their thumbs

[vaptin]

If we assume that the scrutiny by the FIA is extremely precise, it must be something that flexes at 2000N, but not at 500.

I'm interpreting that the FIA have said the wings have passed the tests, so therefore aren't illegal rather than the concept being legal?

Also cool stuff on the material thing guys.

[What's Burning?]

If I remember from school physics which was a few years away. I would imagine some sort of hooks law thing is going on.

Force = k * displacement

if its the same material as the other ones, guess it'll have to do with the cross section of the wing to vary 'k'... so since it is quite possibly carbon fibre as the others; it could be hollow-cored (to decrease 'k') and get more displacement for the same force.

But i doubt its as simple as that. It could also be hollow cored, with a bar of a different material to allow for bending without the wing breaking. Because i think carbon fibre is not too flexible by itself, so the other material absorbs the bending stress...

Its interesting.
But everyone thought Red Bull had some funky suspension... turns out it was the exhaust and bottom. Newey got everyone caught duckling their thumbs

I ride bike and today's bikes have more carbon fiber proportionally at least than most F1 cars. Carbon fiber is interesting in that is compresses well and has a shock absorbing property (compression and expansion) in the tube in the vertical plane but a tremendous rigidity in the horizontal plane, so that's why you see carbon fiber used a lot in front forks and seat posts even on a cheaper bike. Weight saving being what it is in F1 I would bet that it's a weakened wing build, either through reorienting the fiber stands in some areas to allow for the compression and expansion or just a different material like kevlar weaved in.

[Diplomatic Immunity]

If the wing is closer to the ground under load by more than 10mm, then it is not pushing the limits, it is illegal.

When Red Bull claim it is legal, they need to be challenged with two questions:

1) Does it meet the deflection rules under the current FIA regulations?

2) Does it meet the deflection rules under the actual load that it is under when running?

If the second answer is no, then the car is illegal. The rules are quite clear to the extent that the scrutineers can change the test if they even suspect that the movement when running is excessive.

If the whole car is squatting down, then they mush be doing something clever with the wooden board underneath, but to me it does seem to be the front wing is drooping. The rules on moveable bodywork are so strict, that I can’t imagine any legal way of achieving this (which is effectively Whitmarsh’s view) except perhaps that the whole car is built a bit high with soft suspension, and so under running it all lowers down, and they have therefore been able to interpret the various dimensions in a different way – i.e. the wing is not flexing, but is always low when running.

The f-duct was a clever hole in the rules, as was the double diffuser. There is no interpretation of the rules that allows for the wing to deform excessively.





Red Bull has been such a great car all year hopefully the FIA will allow the technology. But a deflection of about 24mm and the regs say a MAX of 10mm when 500 Newtons of force applied...this can definitely be bad for Red Bull I really hope not



.

[Jabberwocky]

to me it does not look like it is drooping. maybe it is the centre pick up points stretching.

[f1usa]

to me it does not look like it is drooping. maybe it is the centre pick up points stretching.

Could this be related to Vettels front wing problem during 3rd practice session at British GP. Did front wing break off or did wing/nose assembly just fall off.

[scotty]

My guess is that they've found a carbon fibre weave or a composite that allows the wings to flex a bit, but that would be surely illegal, and nothing new if you remember Australia 09 where the Toyota's quali got thrown out due to flexing rear wings...

Therefore i was amazed to read this, given all the resources and expertise they have:

McLaren still confused by flexi-wings

McLaren has admitted that it has no idea how to replicate the front wing set-up currently being used by Red Bull Racing and Ferrari.

The legality of the front wings - approved by the FIA prior to the German Grand Prix - had been questioned by rival teams after close scrutiny revealed the wings, and endplates, seemingly flex up to 25mm lower to the ground at high speed, producing more downforce as a result.

McLaren's engineering director Paddy Lowe conceded that despite reviewing the flexi-wing design repeatedly, he is struggling to emulate it.

"I've seen a lot of pictures on that situation," he said. "We believe, and we're not alone, that two cars - Ferrari and Red Bull - have wings existing at a much lower position than we're able to deliver.

"It is a phenomenon we're seeing. It may be entirely legitimate, it may not be. We don't understand it."

McLaren is convinced, however, that the anomaly cannot be explained by simple set-up adjustments.

"It is a difference to a reasonably large degree," says Lowe, "so it's difficult to explain by relatively subtle effects like fuel weight, tyre pressure, or high-speed set-up. These things affect a car to a relatively small degree - much smaller than the degree we've seen in pictures.

"At the minute we are working really hard to understand it, and if it is worth performance to us, to deliver that."

Lowe's comments come two days after McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh said that he too was struggling to explain the flexi-wing design.

[bud]

well no doubt they can get one to flex the 25mm like the Redbull but doing it to pass the test at the same time is another thing. But I think Lowe is playing games with his comments actually to get the FIA to look at it closer.

[Jabberwocky]

Does the wing have to pass a height check after the race?

[f1ea]

The only info i have come accross is here:
http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/2010/833/

Surely the FIA must measure wing height, and subject the element to a force to check for flexing... if it bends under the spec force, then it is illegal.

Both in Red Bull and Ferrari 's wings there seem to be some additional slots near the edges... which do point towards the wing producing additional downforce near the edges of the wing, thus increasing the bending force acting on the wing?

Maybe there's not a radical section or material change, but rather them changing the distribution of the force on the wing by adding those elements, ie sending it more towards the edges. Flexing (momentum) = Force * distance to axis. That way they can get the wing to flex without having to increase the total downforce on the whole front wing which increases drag.