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[kerc]

Ultimately we know that it was Ferrari ordered; that is not in doubt but what I don't like is the fact we don't get to see battles between team mates anymore because the teams are constantly sticking their noses in, spoiling the racing; there is very little overtaking as it is; and with teams stopping their drivers going wheel to wheel makes the races into even more of a snore-fest. Look back to the days or Senna, Piquet, Mansell, constant wheel to wheel action, I was loving the racing at that point, I was devastated if I missed a race, now if I miss a race, it really doesn't bother me, infact some times I simply do something else other than watch the race. Rules are rules and if they are not going to be enforced, stop with all the bullpoo and drop the rule, a token fine does nothing other than to fill the FIA coffers.

You read my mind.

The business side of F1 ate it up completely.

[Troyron]

The lowdown:

http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/24493.html

Coulthard. Bernie. And frankly, anybody with an honest brain will agree.

I really dont see where people want to complicate things more than they should be. In any team sport, the moment any individual tries to be above the team's interests gets a seat in the bench.

The BS is about the spectacle... well, in baseball what everyone wants to do and see is to hit a grand slam home run to win the world series... if in a game a player has to hit a sac fly, a bunt, or an infield hit to win a game. he will do it, even if it hurts his individual numbers. A baseball fan will always cheer the sac fly as much as the home run if it wins the game.

Every team has team orders. Now stop the BS.

If the sport cannot be run without team orders, then it shouldn't be against the rules governing the sport to have team orders.

But given that there is currently a rule that bans them, that rule should be enforced and any infractions punished.

END OF.

Well it seems like BE would like to remove this rule, and he is on the board to decide the "punishment" against Ferrari. Therefore, Ferrari might be deducted the constructor points, but thats it.

[Fact Man]

My recreation of some events:

Mcl to LH: you need to "save fuel"
LH: what about JB?
Mcl to LH: we will ask him to "save fuel"
Mcl to JB: you need to "save fuel"
JB to Mcl: but unlike LH I wasn't pushing the whole race, therefore, I should be able to pass him
Mcl to JB: no, you need to "save fuel"

If a team uses coded messages to order drivers that's acceptable and should not be considered favoritism or cheating especially if it's coming from Mcl.

But when another team does it so blatantly, they are called cheaters.

People on this forum need to get over it. It's not about FA, FM, LH or JB, it's about the TEAM. They make the decisions.
How many points did FM win for Ferrari this season compared to FA?
FM will always be a 2nd driver no matter what.

It is always enjoyable reading posts from LH lambs attacking Ferrari and FA

I would say allow team orders and stop this farce of coded messages. Teams are in F1 for the money whether we like it or not.

[thedukeuk]

Maybe ferrari had a bet on Alonso to win and Massa second.

Surley if they are going to allow team orders that affect the outcome of races then they should ban betting on the races as the teams can then decide the outcome of the race.

And as unlikeley as it is you could end up with people throwing races for money............


Whether you think they should have team orders not is beside the point cause on sunday the rules state no teams orders that affect the out come of the race.

And clearly they did.
I think the best thing that could happen to ferrari is for massa to make a come back and lose the championship by a only a couple of points

[Flux]

My recreation of some events:

Mcl to LH: you need to "save fuel"
LH: what about JB?
Mcl to LH: we will ask him to "save fuel"
Mcl to JB: you need to "save fuel"
JB to Mcl: but unlike LH I wasn't pushing the whole race, therefore, I should be able to pass him
Mcl to JB: no, you need to "save fuel"

If a team uses coded messages to order drivers that's acceptable and should not be considered favoritism or cheating especially if it's coming from Mcl.

But when another team does it so blatantly, they are called cheaters.
.

except jb never said that (in bold) and infact was actually pushing just as much as LH in turkey hence being so close behind anyway.

[Ineluke]

My recreation of some events:

Mcl to LH: you need to "save fuel"
LH: what about JB?
Mcl to LH: we will ask him to "save fuel"
Mcl to JB: you need to "save fuel"
JB to Mcl: but unlike LH I wasn't pushing the whole race, therefore, I should be able to pass him
Mcl to JB: no, you need to "save fuel"

If a team uses coded messages to order drivers that's acceptable and should not be considered favoritism or cheating especially if it's coming from Mcl.

But when another team does it so blatantly, they are called cheaters.

People on this forum need to get over it. It's not about FA, FM, LH or JB, it's about the TEAM. They make the decisions.
How many points did FM win for Ferrari this season compared to FA?
FM will always be a 2nd driver no matter what.

It is always enjoyable reading posts from LH lambs attacking Ferrari and FA

I would say allow team orders and stop this farce of coded messages. Teams are in F1 for the money whether we like it or not.

Erm, link that transcrip because i listened to the whole lot and i didn't hear Jenson say the words ... Lewis has been pushing hard so i should be able to pass him... and then being told not to.
Now i might be wrong but just in case i am not, can you link that driver manscript.
Thanks.

[What's Burning?]

My recreation of some events:

Mcl to LH: you need to "save fuel"
LH: what about JB?
Mcl to LH: we will ask him to "save fuel"
Mcl to JB: you need to "save fuel"
JB to Mcl: but unlike LH I wasn't pushing the whole race, therefore, I should be able to pass him
Mcl to JB: no, you need to "save fuel"

If a team uses coded messages to order drivers that's acceptable and should not be considered favoritism or cheating especially if it's coming from Mcl.

But when another team does it so blatantly, they are called cheaters.

People on this forum need to get over it. It's not about FA, FM, LH or JB, it's about the TEAM. They make the decisions.
How many points did FM win for Ferrari this season compared to FA?
FM will always be a 2nd driver no matter what.

It is always enjoyable reading posts from LH lambs attacking Ferrari and FA

I would say allow team orders and stop this farce of coded messages. Teams are in F1 for the money whether we like it or not.

The irony of your recreation is that even with the coded message, JB still passed and then was overtaken back by LH giving us the second most memorable moment of that race and a moment that will be in all of the year end wrapup clips.

We didn't get that from Ferrari... and really really hurts me emotionally

[stonemonkey]

My recreation of some events:

Mcl to LH: you need to "save fuel"
LH: what about JB?
Mcl to LH: we will ask him to "save fuel"
Mcl to JB: you need to "save fuel"
JB to Mcl: but unlike LH I wasn't pushing the whole race, therefore, I should be able to pass him
Mcl to JB: no, you need to "save fuel"

If a team uses coded messages to order drivers that's acceptable and should not be considered favoritism or cheating especially if it's coming from Mcl.

But when another team does it so blatantly, they are called cheaters.

People on this forum need to get over it. It's not about FA, FM, LH or JB, it's about the TEAM. They make the decisions.
How many points did FM win for Ferrari this season compared to FA?
FM will always be a 2nd driver no matter what.

It is always enjoyable reading posts from LH lambs attacking Ferrari and FA

I would say allow team orders and stop this farce of coded messages. Teams are in F1 for the money whether we like it or not.

For once, I agree with you and now they can't continue to ignore the issue. They can either scrap the rule or make an attempt to enforce it which would probably mean some sort of (more meaningful than $100,000) penalty to the team to make an example of them but since the rule is pretty much unenforcable and Ferrari haven't done anything that other teams haven't done in the past other than being more obvious about it I can't really see that happeneing.

[Flux]

The irony of your recreation is that even with the coded message, JB still passed and then was overtaken back by LH giving us the second most memorable moment of that race and a moment that will be in all of the year end wrapup clips.

We didn't get that from Ferrari... and really really hurts me emotionally

i feel thats why so many people are upset we have seen all season long good racing from redbull and mclaren, resulting in as you say some of the most memorable moments of the season so far, and the moment ferrari have the opportunity to entertain its fans and fans of f1 with what would be excellent racing is frankly and insult to us.

oh and second point still WHY do so many people seem to think that the only options were Felipe would crash fernando off and wreck their races or fernando would just sail by him.

[f1ea]

i feel thats why so many people are upset we have seen all season long good racing from redbull and mclaren, resulting in as you say some of the most memorable moments of the season so far, and the moment ferrari have the opportunity to entertain its fans and fans of f1 with what would be excellent racing is frankly and insult to us.

oh and second point still WHY do so many people seem to think that the only options were Felipe would crash fernando off and wreck their races or fernando would just sail by him.

Red Bull and Mclaren drivers are pretty much tied. None are noticeably struggling.

Ferrari never said they 'would' crash, but the risk (specially since Massa has less to lose) was unacceptable to them.
I won't say it was exciting. I dont think its what the fans would like to see... in baseball terms: Massa hit a sac fly.
A homerun is always nicer... a better spectacle... but not always the way games are/should be won.

I'm sorry for Massa. Not for this situation, but for his struggles.

[Matkins]

I'm not so convinced Alonso would have won the race without the favour. His best chance to legitimately pass Massa came after he announced "this is ridiculous", but the only rediculous thing I could see was his attempt that followed. As Brundel pointed out, he blew his chance when he had it. But I guess overtaking is extra difficult whilst complaining on the radio. He should get his priorities right, does he really want to be remembered as the dullest F1 driver?

[smokin]

For once, I agree with you and now they can't continue to ignore the issue. They can either scrap the rule or make an attempt to enforce it which would probably mean some sort of (more meaningful than $100,000) penalty to the team to make an example of them but since the rule is pretty much unenforcable and Ferrari haven't done anything that other teams haven't done in the past other than being more obvious about it I can't really see that happeneing.

Precisely.

Like it or not, an unenforceable rule is a bad rule. Scrap it.

[What's Burning?]

Ferrari never said they 'would' crash, but the risk (specially since Massa has less to lose) was unacceptable to them.
I won't say it was exciting. I dont think its what the fans would like to see... in baseball terms: Massa hit a sac fly.
A homerun is always nicer... a better spectacle... but not always the way games are/should be won.

I'm sorry for Massa. Not for this situation, but for his struggles.

You took the corporate bait, you are seeing this and trying to rationalize it, make it fit. You are now blaming Massa for doing what he was ordered to do, castigating him twice. Once for not being allowed to do what he was probably capable or doing... we'll never know. Twice for now saying he was instructed to do so because of his failing as a driver this year... this criticisms being cast at the guy LEADING the race!

You have to have some regret as an F1 fan, forget Ferrari... simply as an F1 fan to see your driver pass another driver his team mate or anyone else, and take the lead and go on to win the race.

If he was as abbysmal a driver as you and Ferrari now claim, how come he wasn't passed by Vettle, the guy driving the fasted car in the race?

Simple yes or no answer will do, did you miss seeing what could have been?

[Hammer278]

I can see both sides of the argument. I can see why Ferrari wanted to avoid a scrap, and I can see why Massa should grow a pair of balls and fight for position. He very likely would have lost that battle though, which is perhaps why he decided not to bother. He couldn't stay ahead of Alonso and pretty quickly fell into the clutches of Vettel after Alonso left him. Still, it would have been nice to see Alonso and Massa go at it for a few laps. Just as it would have been nice to see Lewis and Button do the same a few races back and countless other team order situations over the years.

He couldn't stay ahead because Ferrari asked him to move over. Until that, he was doing just fine, and he successfully defended even when they were side by side.

It doesn't matter how much faster Alonso is, they are both racers (supposedly) in racing cars. What Ferrari have proved is that they have no confidence whatsoever in their drivers to make room for each other, and moreover, employed clear favouritsm on one driver over another. Not only is this a breach of regulations, they have violated multiple rules by outright lying to the public and to everyone else outside the team. And they're still not letting up. This is comparable to Flavio Briatore outright lying to everyone that he did not order Nelson to crash when everyone knew the obvious truth.

Pick a penalty: Strip them off Hockenheim results or ban them for this entire year from the grid.

[billindenver]

I can see both sides of the argument. I can see why Ferrari wanted to avoid a scrap, and I can see why Massa should grow a pair of balls and fight for position. He very likely would have lost that battle though, which is perhaps why he decided not to bother. He couldn't stay ahead of Alonso and pretty quickly fell into the clutches of Vettel after Alonso left him. Still, it would have been nice to see Alonso and Massa go at it for a few laps. Just as it would have been nice to see Lewis and Button do the same a few races back and countless other team order situations over the years.

He couldn't stay ahead because Ferrari asked him to move over. Until that, he was doing just fine, and he successfully defended even when they were side by side.

It doesn't matter how much faster Alonso is, they are both racers (supposedly) in racing cars. What Ferrari have proved is that they have no confidence whatsoever in their drivers to make room for each other, and moreover, employed clear favouritsm on one driver over another. Not only is this a breach of regulations, they have violated multiple rules by outright lying to the public and to everyone else outside the team. And they're still not letting up. This is comparable to Flavio Briatore outright lying to everyone that he did not order Nelson to crash when everyone knew the obvious truth.

Pick a penalty: Strip them off Hockenheim results or ban them for this entire year from the grid.

Hypocritical ferrari hatred. Nothing more, nothing less. It isn't even something new...since you do it at all times, for any reason whatsoever. You had nothing whatsoever to say when McLaren pulled the save fuel BS...but now you are up on a soapbox calling for blood. It isn't going to happen man. They will not take so much as a race worth of points from them. All they did was tell the driver in front that he was slower. McLaren did the exact same thing with Heiki and he moved over...giving Hamilton a championship in the bargain. You are going to be disappointed. They will not get any further penalty, and I wouldn't be surprised if the fine is removed. You can't prove that there was a team order...and if you do prove it, they have to take Hamilton's WDC away since his team boss admitted in an interview that they only advised Heiki that he was slower than Hamilton...exactly as Ferrari did with Massa. It's the exact same thing...even if your red car hatred won't let you admit it.