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[Ineluke]

I love the fact Schuey's come out and said he supports team orders!, Really!, Schuey said that!, well you could knock me down with a feather, I could never have predicted such a thing, ( Please read this whole post with a sarcastic voice).

On a serious note though folks, just about everybody in F1 is saying team orders should exist, all the pro's working in F1 don't mind them, well from reading this forum and talking to my mates we as the public don't support them, Lets see how well F1 does with nobody betting on it, watching it or buying tickets to go to it, I think it might be an idea if they take into consideration the people paying for the whole thing, You and me.

Team orders will always exist. It's the financial side of racing and there would be no racing without it. It's reality and they should simply delete the stupid rule from the book.

Massa was told for quite some time to pick up his pace. The team was trying to keep him in front. He was then told that Alonso was faster....and he chose to let him by. The same has happened multiple times in other teams. It is the height of all ignorance to go wheel to wheel with your teammate for the lead in a race. When Red Bull did it, they lost two championship leads and caused untold strife in their team which they are still dealing with. When McLaren did it in the same race, the team quickly put a stop to it. Hamilton even came over the radio and asked if the team was stopping Button from making a move. Ferrari did what they had to do and any race fan should understand that. Massa lost some respect in my eyes for blatantly throwing his team under the bus. He isn't a great driver by any means and Ferrari would be better off without him if he is going to be such a douchebag.

Billyboy, you are not exactly telling the truth about tukey and the Jenson and Lewis situation.
Lewis was told to save fuel,he replied and then Martin said that Jenson had been told the same thing, no one was told to let the other pass.
Jenson then decided to make a move on Lewis knowing he had slowed down to conserve fuel,he pulled it off but soon lost it to an overtake artist.
That is not the same as Alonso and Massa, if you are going to compare then do it with Rubens and Micheal in 2002.

Some people,lol.

[What's Burning?]

SPEED Posted the following

Ferrari boss Luca di Montezemolo has made it clear that he has no problem with what the team did in Hockenheim, and says that Felipe Massa must understand that the interests of the team come first.

Massa allegedly handed over the lead to teammate Fernando Alonso, who went on to win.

“I am very happy for all our fans who finally, yesterday, saw two Ferraris lead from start to finish as they dominated the race,” said di Montezemolo on Ferrari's website. “The result is down to the efforts of all our people, who never give up. Now we have to continue working like this, to improve the car so that it is competitive at all the circuits we will encounter.

“Alonso and Massa also did very well, giving their all throughout the weekend. The polemics are of no interest to me. I simply reaffirm what I have always maintained, which is that our drivers are very well aware, and it is something they have to stick to, that if one races for Ferrari, then the interests of the team come before those of the individual.

“In any case, these things have happened since the days of Nuvolari, and I experienced it myself when I was Sporting Director, in the days of Niki Lauda and not just then. ... Therefore, enough of this hypocrisy, even if I can well believe that some people might well have liked to see our two drivers eliminate one another. But that is definitely not the case for me or indeed for our fans.”

Is Luca's last paragraph here trying to justify the whole situation implying that their drivers can't execute a safe pass? Treat your fans with some dignity, you did was was right for Ferrari, not Ferrari's fans. People's opinion of Ferrari will not change they understand in the end it's a business that's obligated to the sponsors first and the fans second.

[billindenver]

"McLaren boss Ron Dennis rejected any suggestion Heikki Kovalainen was the victim of team orders during Sunday's German Formula One Grand Prix.
As Hockenheim winner and championship leader Lewis Hamilton made his way back to the front following the mid-race safety car, his Finnish teammate Kovalainen, now a full 30 points behind in the driver's standings, seemed to pull aside and let his British colleague past.
Hamilton, 23, and Dennis thanked the 26-year-old for his cooperation.
Dennis denied Kovalainen was ordered to cede, which would be a breach of the post 2002 rules.
"The only thing we do is advise our drivers of the respective pace of the other driver", he said."

and

radio conversation:
Lewis Hamilton: Jenson’s closing in me you guys.
McLaren: Understood, Lewis.
Lewis Hamilton: If I back off is Jenson going to pass me or not?
McLaren: No Lewis, no

and

From BBC:
Monaco 2007: McLaren order Lewis Hamilton not to challenge Fernando Alonso for the race win
Brazil 2007: Ferrari manipulate Felipe Massa's pit stop toput Kimi Raikkonen into the lead so he can win the world title
Germany 2008: Heikki Kovalainen lets McLaren team-mate Hamilton through so he can win the race following an error in team tactics
Singapore 2008: Renault order Nelson Piquet to crash to cause a safety car period that helps Alonso win
China 2008: Raikkonen hands Massa second place behind Hamilton so he is in a better championship position heading into the final race

[zurich_allan]

I don't like team orders; never have and never will. I understand that they were part of F1 (legitimately prior to 2003) but at this time they are banned and Ferrari have blatantly broken that rule; the radio message was very thinly veiled; and Rob Smedley saying to Massa "Sorry, just keep with it" after the fact just about puts the nail in the coffin for Ferrari. A $100,000 fine is pocket change; di Montezemolo probably has that in his wallet, Ferrari should have been excluded immediately, it's ridiculous to have to go to a WMSC hearing to hand down punishment. Punishment should be dished out during the race; not in a courtroom weeks later!

I completely agree that the fine is a useless punishment under the circumstances, and I do think that Ferari should be punished more severely for what became a farce entirely of their own doing. Personally I don't know what the answer is though. Fact is that Ferrari worked damn hard and were entirely justifiably and deservedly 1-2, just not in the the order that they finished.

I don't think excluding them from the race is the answer though, as I'm not comfortable with others who don't deserve it being handed wins by default. Why should Vettel be handed a win that he didn't earn? I wasn't comfortable with Massa being given the win at Spa in '08 and I wouldn't be comfortable with Vettel being handed a win now. He wasn't disadvantaged by the situation and wasn't affected as a result of it - much as Massa was entirely unaffected by the Hamilton / Kimi situation at Spa.

I think the only way to stop this type of thing happening (or rather in order to not sound naive to avoid teams being so blatant!!) is to hand out a ban for the next race. Probably won't happen, but I think it's the best punishment out of a bad selection that could be handed out, and the fairest all round!

[Ineluke]

"McLaren boss Ron Dennis rejected any suggestion Heikki Kovalainen was the victim of team orders during Sunday's German Formula One Grand Prix.
As Hockenheim winner and championship leader Lewis Hamilton made his way back to the front following the mid-race safety car, his Finnish teammate Kovalainen, now a full 30 points behind in the driver's standings, seemed to pull aside and let his British colleague past.
Hamilton, 23, and Dennis thanked the 26-year-old for his cooperation.
Dennis denied Kovalainen was ordered to cede, which would be a breach of the post 2002 rules.
"The only thing we do is advise our drivers of the respective pace of the other driver", he said."

and

radio conversation:
Lewis Hamilton: Jenson’s closing in me you guys.
McLaren: Understood, Lewis.
Lewis Hamilton: If I back off is Jenson going to pass me or not?
McLaren: No Lewis, no

Again, not the same situation,no one lost a place. If they were both told to conserve fuel then it's obvious lewis is going to ask that question.
As it turned out Jenson did overtake but lost it again to Lewis.
This is not the same as being told your teamate is faster, let him through. Like i said, compare it to Rubens and Micheal in 2002, that situation was identical.

[billindenver]

Again, not the same situation,no one lost a place. If they were both told to conserve fuel then it's obvious lewis is going to ask that question.
As it turned out Jenson did overtake but lost it again to Lewis.
This is not the same as being told your teamate is faster, let him through. Like i said, compare it to Rubens and Micheal in 2002, that situation was identical.

Heikki allowed Lewis to pass for position in Germany, 08. A position was clearly lost and that was in 2008...what else happened in 2008 and by how many points? Without that pass, Hamilton doesn't win the championship that year. A WDC was manipulated with that team order pass. Defend that Ineluke. Go on, lets hear it? If you are so up in arms now, why were you not freaking out then as well? You are a hypocrite who is trying to justify a position. You either hate team orders or you don't...but you clearly seem to hate them only when they don't benefit your boy.

[Troyron]

[/quote]

youre forgetting lewis just came out the pits with fresh set of tyres added onto the fact he was faster than not only his team mate but everyone the whole weekend, I suppose Massa and Piquet let Hamilton through for the lead as well? how is that similar to the situation where Massa got the lead on merit was holding his own and had no reason why he couldnt have won.

Sorry Heikki got out the way and not fighting Lewis' overtake, Massa had to slow down. Difference right there![/quote]

The rule is black and white, no grey and he is fast, has new tires and so on. The difference here is that McLaren probably had made the let Heikki know what to do before the race started. It is still team order, when the nr 2 driver is expected to move over for his teammate.

[Ineluke]

Again, not the same situation,no one lost a place. If they were both told to conserve fuel then it's obvious lewis is going to ask that question.
As it turned out Jenson did overtake but lost it again to Lewis.
This is not the same as being told your teamate is faster, let him through. Like i said, compare it to Rubens and Micheal in 2002, that situation was identical.

Heikki allowed Lewis to pass for position in Germany, 08. A position was clearly lost and that was in 2008...what else happened in 2008 and by how many points? Without that pass, Hamilton doesn't win the championship that year. A WDC was manipulated with that team order pass. Defend that Ineluke. Go on, lets hear it? If you are so up in arms now, why were you not freaking out then as well? You are a hypocrite who is trying to justify a position. You either hate team orders or you don't...but you clearly seem to hate them only when they don't benefit your boy.

Billy , billy, bill lol, you are losing this one, i was going to explain to you but the post above me explains very well.
As for team orders, it's not what i hate or don't hate, the point is it's not allowed. If you want to debate on whether it should be allowed then start another thread, ill gladly debate the subject.
Alonso the rat cheated along with his team,it's not the first time he has been under the spotlight.
Anyway billyboy, give it up,their is no getting away from it.

[billindenver]

Again, not the same situation,no one lost a place. If they were both told to conserve fuel then it's obvious lewis is going to ask that question.
As it turned out Jenson did overtake but lost it again to Lewis.
This is not the same as being told your teamate is faster, let him through. Like i said, compare it to Rubens and Micheal in 2002, that situation was identical.

Heikki allowed Lewis to pass for position in Germany, 08. A position was clearly lost and that was in 2008...what else happened in 2008 and by how many points? Without that pass, Hamilton doesn't win the championship that year. A WDC was manipulated with that team order pass. Defend that Ineluke. Go on, lets hear it? If you are so up in arms now, why were you not freaking out then as well? You are a hypocrite who is trying to justify a position. You either hate team orders or you don't...but you clearly seem to hate them only when they don't benefit your boy.

Billy , billy, bill lol, you are losing this one, i was going to explain to you but the post above me explains very well.
As for team orders, it's not what i hate or don't hate, the point is it's not allowed. If you want to debate on whether it should be allowed then start another thread, ill gladly debate the subject.
Alonso the rat cheated along with his team,it's not the first time he has been under the spotlight.
Anyway billyboy, give it up,their is no getting away from it.

Getting away from what? The entire point of a web board on the internet is to discuss things, in this case F1. We are doing exactly that, so what's to get away from? You think I'm wrong...I think you are...so we go back and forth...you calling me names and refusing to answer any direct questions or challenges to your position and me enjoying the uselessness of it all while waiting for a meeting to start while you rant. Now, I will head off to the meeting and you will raid mommy's fridge....the world having not cared that we disagree yet again.

[Ineluke]

Again, not the same situation,no one lost a place. If they were both told to conserve fuel then it's obvious lewis is going to ask that question.
As it turned out Jenson did overtake but lost it again to Lewis.
This is not the same as being told your teamate is faster, let him through. Like i said, compare it to Rubens and Micheal in 2002, that situation was identical.

Heikki allowed Lewis to pass for position in Germany, 08. A position was clearly lost and that was in 2008...what else happened in 2008 and by how many points? Without that pass, Hamilton doesn't win the championship that year. A WDC was manipulated with that team order pass. Defend that Ineluke. Go on, lets hear it? If you are so up in arms now, why were you not freaking out then as well? You are a hypocrite who is trying to justify a position. You either hate team orders or you don't...but you clearly seem to hate them only when they don't benefit your boy.

Billy , billy, bill lol, you are losing this one, i was going to explain to you but the post above me explains very well.
As for team orders, it's not what i hate or don't hate, the point is it's not allowed. If you want to debate on whether it should be allowed then start another thread, ill gladly debate the subject.
Alonso the rat cheated along with his team,it's not the first time he has been under the spotlight.
Anyway billyboy, give it up,their is no getting away from it.

Getting away from what? The entire point of a web board on the internet is to discuss things, in this case F1. We are doing exactly that, so what's to get away from? You think I'm wrong...I think you are...so we go back and forth...you calling me names and refusing to answer any direct questions or challenges to your position and me enjoying the uselessness of it all while waiting for a meeting to start while you rant. Now, I will head off to the meeting and you will raid mommy's fridge....the world having not cared that we disagree yet again.

Who has called you names? I called Alonso a rat and you by your forum name, which i am guessing is bill,right? As for me raiding mommy's fridge, i think my girlfriend would not be to happy about me leaving my house at 11pm to go raid my mum's fridge.
She would not believe me,lol.

I can never get used to the o in mommy,where i come from it's a u....

[f1ea]

Heikki allowed Lewis to pass for position in Germany, 08. A position was clearly lost and that was in 2008...what else happened in 2008 and by how many points? Without that pass, Hamilton doesn't win the championship that year. A WDC was manipulated with that team order pass. Defend that Ineluke. Go on, lets hear it? If you are so up in arms now, why were you not freaking out then as well? You are a hypocrite who is trying to justify a position. You either hate team orders or you don't...but you clearly seem to hate them only when they don't benefit your boy.

Oh no Bill!! don't make sense. They're going to call you a redneck.

[Hammer278]

Can one of the 'defendants' explain to me if Ferrari did something so right and what everyone else IS doing....why are they blatantly lying to everyone, everyone in the World that they did NOT employ team orders, and Alonso himself repeatedly lied in the press conference saying "Massa did not give the position to me". He didn't just say this once, mind you.

Lewis lied after Australia in 2008 with the Toyota debacle, he was told to lie to protect the team and he did. Result?

Please tell me why Ferrari does not deserve to be stripped off all results after lying REPEATEDLY and for manipulating a race win very much like Austria 2002. Ferrari fans defending Ferrari are real suckers, as the team are not being honourable whatsoever. If it was a team order and Alonso is the No.1, then just say it!! Because everyone watching the sport aren't dumbasses, and Ferrari don't seem to believe that. What a team.

[billindenver]

Can one of the 'defendants' explain to me if Ferrari did something so right and what everyone else IS doing....why are they blatantly lying to everyone, everyone in the World that they did NOT employ team orders, and Alonso himself repeatedly lied in the press conference saying "Massa did not give the position to me". He didn't just say this once, mind you.

Lewis lied after Australia in 2008 with the Toyota debacle, he was told to lie to protect the team and he did. Result?

Please tell me why Ferrari does not deserve to be stripped off all results after lying REPEATEDLY and for manipulating a race win very much like Austria 2002. Ferrari fans defending Ferrari are real suckers, as the team are not being honourable whatsoever. If it was a team order and Alonso is the No.1, then just say it!! Because everyone watching the sport aren't dumbasses, and Ferrari don't seem to believe that. What a team.

Pot...meet...kettle. And the following 'manipulation' as you put it....won him a world driving championship. It was team orders and I didn't have a problem with it then, and still don't. You on the other hand...only have a problem if it involves someone other than a McLaren member. I want you to read the very last line of what Ron Dennis says below. Then, relate that to what the recorded audio from pit to Massa was. Really think it over...then click the video below.


"McLaren boss Ron Dennis rejected any suggestion Heikki Kovalainen was the victim of team orders during Sunday's German Formula One Grand Prix.
As Hockenheim winner and championship leader Lewis Hamilton made his way back to the front following the mid-race safety car, his Finnish teammate Kovalainen, now a full 30 points behind in the driver's standings, seemed to pull aside and let his British colleague past.
Hamilton, 23, and Dennis thanked the 26-year-old for his cooperation.
Dennis denied Kovalainen was ordered to cede, which would be a breach of the post 2002 rules.
"The only thing we do is advise our drivers of the respective pace of the other driver", he said."


[youtube]R2sdGmbLNwY[/youtube]

[Hammer278]

That's real cool billi. But I have addressed your issue, 1st post of page 15. Since this is a pretty long thread, easy to miss it of course.

I like how you neatly skirted my question of why Ferrari is outright lying to everyone. You should answer Mr2times' press conference questions for him, he's rubbish at it.

[bud]

he didnt let him pass Lewis was lapping faster, he would have passed him as he passed both Massa and Piquet. What he did was not put up a fight. remember Lewis was the leader up until the SC ruined that. Alonso on the other hand was trading laps with Massa even on the hards when Alonso was apparently faster Massa was matching and bettering him.

Look at it this way.

Did McLaren stop Heikki from winning? No, Lewis was the only driver fast enough in the team to win.

Did Ferrari stop Massa from winning? Yes!! Was Alonso faster? if he was why not pass him as Lewis showed you can pass at the track with a faster car.

difference again Scotty