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By Gaz
#202123
Yeah a misunderstanding by the looks of radio communication, But in a way similar to the Redbull situation one car saving fuel the other taking advantage of it.


key diffrence being they didn't take each other out.

Like a certain german wookie that can't overtake.
By The Ram
#202315
No :nono: less drag but more tyre wear. Drive behind another car on the highway and watch your fuel mileage display go to a lesser liters/km or higher mpg. just like migrating birds, or the tour de france teams. This is well known, I don't know why you would think otherwise.


This is true on straights. I doubt it happens like this on curves with highly aero-dependent cars.
It can also be true when you are not actually trying to make the pass, Lewis did try several passes.


If the other guy is blocking the air there is less drag force for the guy behind however you want to twist it. The other factor is the load on the engine. Hamilton attempted many passes, but there was never a time when he accelerated his engine to pass a RedBull. In fact his attempted passes were all in BRAKING, he never got pass any RedBull (after the first lap). Braking doesn't load the engine.

This seems to match up to Jenson only having "a little bit"(according to Mclaren) more fuel than Hamilton at the end of the race, despite Hamilton finishing seconds ahead. You can pretty much expect that Hamilton had more fuel before and sometime after Jenson overtook him but used up more doing the 1:30's towards the end of the race.
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By billindenver
#202320
No :nono: less drag but more tyre wear. Drive behind another car on the highway and watch your fuel mileage display go to a lesser liters/km or higher mpg. just like migrating birds, or the tour de france teams. This is well known, I don't know why you would think otherwise.


This is true on straights. I doubt it happens like this on curves with highly aero-dependent cars.
It can also be true when you are not actually trying to make the pass, Lewis did try several passes.


If the other guy is blocking the air there is less drag force for the guy behind however you want to twist it. The other factor is the load on the engine. Hamilton attempted many passes, but there was never a time when he accelerated his engine to pass a RedBull. In fact his attempted passes were all in BRAKING, he never got pass any RedBull (after the first lap). Braking doesn't load the engine.

This seems to match up to Jenson only having "a little bit"(according to Mclaren) more fuel than Hamilton at the end of the race, despite Hamilton finishing seconds ahead. You can pretty much expect that Hamilton had more fuel before and sometime after Jenson overtook him but used up more doing the 1:30's towards the end of the race.



You clearly have a very great understanding of aerodynamics. For us aero ignorant simpleton fans, please explain the distance behind a modern F1 car in which there still exists what we would normally call 'draftable' air. Behind that point, which you will define, please explain how far turbulence will exist and what it's affect in drag is on the trailing car's aerodynamics. Finally, please explain to us ignorant peasants the distance behind the leading car at which a car needs to follow in order to attain 'clean' air.

By the way...you said "Hamilton attempted many passes, but there was never a time when he accelerated his engine to pass a RedBull". You do realize this is a race right. Do you realize how seldom the car is under throttle and it isn't full throttle? "Never a time when he accelerated his engine to pass a redbull"? Do you really think your hero, or any sane human being with the even the slightest understanding of racing, would agree with you? FYI, when they reach the braking area they are not coasting along waiting for the braking to begin. They are full throttle right up until they are full braking. That is the definition of racing. It is true whether you are racing go carts, motocross or race cars. You are full throttle until the second you are full braking...there is no in between or you are losing ground. If he brakes later, he was accelerating longer. That is where he made up the ground.

In short, you are arguing just for the sake of arguing. And you are doing so on a subject you know next to nothing about.
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By EwanM
#202326
I have to admit it's getting better, a little better, all the time...
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By texasmr2
#202327
Bill it is just another case of the blind leading the blind.
By The Ram
#202331

You clearly have a very great understanding of aerodynamics. For us aero ignorant simpleton fans, please explain the distance behind a modern F1 car in which there still exists what we would normally call 'draftable' air.


I would say from watching the race.. that it's maybe about 50m to 75m if two cars exit a turn right after the other before the main straight. As the cars go faster and faster the distance increases. So it is not one distance.

Behind that point, which you will define, please explain how far turbulence will exist and what it's affect in drag is on the trailing car's aerodynamics.


The wake of an F1 car moves likes spirals from the end-plate tips, and there is an updraft from under the diffuser. This in itself is turbulence. All the F1 cars are turbulent from behind.Turbulence can destroy the best down-force making attempts, but not for drag. Drag is a function of the relative speed of the air. In turbulence the velocity of the air when resolved into the component in the forward direction is much less than if the air was in steady flow where all the velocities always stay in the same magnitude direction over time.

Because of this the pressure is obviously lower than atmospheric pressure. This is why the air is not good for downforce, but it's excellent for drag reduction.

Finally, please explain to us ignorant peasants the distance behind the leading car at which a car needs to follow in order to attain 'clean' air.


Whenever the air is steady (velocity unchanging over a time). If a guy is one turn away from another guy, or too far away on the straights he obviously would not be inside the leading cars turbulent air. As I said It's not even a distance. I think the question is "WHEN." Whatever settling time that is.. obviously I don't know.. but Jenson wasn't getting it for most of the race that's for sure. :hehe:

By the way...you said "Hamilton attempted many passes, but there was never a time when he accelerated his engine to pass a RedBull". You do realize this is a race right.


Yes.

Do you realize how seldom the car is under throttle and it isn't full throttle?

Yes.

"Never a time when he accelerated his engine to pass a redbull"?
Do you really think your hero, or any sane human being with the even the slightest understanding of racing, would agree with you? FYI, when they reach the braking area they are not coasting along waiting for the braking to begin.


You have to come off the throttle to slow for the turns. Watch an onboard video on f1.com and look for those Red and Green squares on the left side of the screen. After Hamilton attempted the failed over takes, he goes through the turns slower than he normally would. And there is no point in using the "push to pass" button because there was never a point in time (After the vettel overtake) when Hamilton needed to out accelerate a RedBull out of a corner. I don't see how his engine should be more loaded than Button's when he is going slower through the corner. Less revs and less acceleration means less load.


They are full throttle right up until they are full braking.


Yes. I know.

That is the definition of racing. It is true whether you are racing go carts, motocross or race cars. You are full throttle until the second you are full braking...there is no in between or you are losing ground. If he brakes later, he was accelerating longer. That is where he made up the ground.

In short, you are arguing just for the sake of arguing. And you are doing so on a subject you know next to nothing about.


Hmm.. I don't even know what to say to that. You give me the answers to the questions then.
By The Ram
#203174
Looking back to the past (winter testing days)

Anyway.. on to the tyre management. We will see how it goes tomorrow. I honestly don't believe that smooth driving is going to extend tyre life, from it is done at a similar pace to high reaction driving, the tyres might more or less last the same. We see that Hamilton has a consistent 2 tenths to 4 tenths on Button so far, so there is a good tyre management comparison to be made after the fist round of pitstops.


I remember the harsh responses I got from saying this :D . It;s a fact that Jenson's soft tyres finished first in all of the races. :D Even in Canada going by the lap time patterns and Jenson's own admission he just didn't have the tyres nor the speed to close the gap to Hamilton in any meaningful way. In other words the adaptable Hamilton is beating Jenny Boy with Jenson's own weapons. I guess Hamilton's head is rather large for a reason! Very unexpected and Impressive. :clap:

It will be fun to watch Hamilton continue to mimic and improve upon all of Jenson's best traits and turn them against him; akin to the style of a ruthless general I must say. :whip:

The Smackdown shall continueth.
By Hammer278
#203181
What a race!! Jenson was practically licking Lewis' shoes after both got out of the car....

It looks like Jenson is happy to be Lewis' rear gunner, which is great news. :D

Lewis for the 2010 WDC!
By vaptin
#203190
What a race!! Jenson was practically licking Lewis' shoes after both got out of the car....

It looks like Jenson is happy to be Lewis' rear gunner, which is great news. :D

Lewis for the 2010 WDC!


And we've got another one.

At anyrate, come on guys, Jenson was hardly crushed, he's in check with hamilton and its a long season.
By Hammer278
#203197
Sorry mate, never intended to come across as Jenson being crushed in terms of performance. He did well in Canada, just not as well as Lewis. What is getting slightly weird is Jensons 'huggy huggy I hug you you hug me' nature after a race.

As far as the season has gone, in terms of performance I have to say Jenson is quite fortunate to only be a few points of Lewis. Lewis has had many misfortunes this season and Jenson has had it go his way (weather/strategy) and Lewis is still in front. Bear in mind the botched Melbourne pitstops, the Spain failure (-18). He could be really gunning for it by now if he had some luck on his side. He's had to work for it all this time.
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By f1ea
#203214
The wake of an F1 car moves likes spirals from the end-plate tips, and there is an updraft from under the diffuser. This in itself is turbulence. All the F1 cars are turbulent from behind.Turbulence can destroy the best down-force making attempts, but not for drag. Drag is a function of the relative speed of the air. In turbulence the velocity of the air when resolved into the component in the forward direction is much less than if the air was in steady flow where all the velocities always stay in the same magnitude direction over time.


This is right. But does not take into account what the driver is doing. A driver following another car (trying to get past) is pushing at full throttle still. Even if he gets less drag, what he will try to have is greater end speed, not a shorter throttle time. While at the same time needing to adjust the most efficient line and having to adjust/compensate conrner exits. If he wasnt racing, he could just care less about his exits, but if he's actually trying to make ground he will keep pushing to try and compensate the loss of corner speed.

OR, Lewis could have simply been fueled lighter than Jenson :)


Looking back to the past (winter testing days)

Anyway.. on to the tyre management. We will see how it goes tomorrow. I honestly don't believe that smooth driving is going to extend tyre life, from it is done at a similar pace to high reaction driving, the tyres might more or less last the same. We see that Hamilton has a consistent 2 tenths to 4 tenths on Button so far, so there is a good tyre management comparison to be made after the fist round of pitstops.


I remember the harsh responses I got from saying this :D . It;s a fact that Jenson's soft tyres finished first in all of the races. :D Even in Canada going by the lap time patterns and Jenson's own admission he just didn't have the tyres nor the speed to close the gap to Hamilton in any meaningful way. In other words the adaptable Hamilton is beating Jenny Boy with Jenson's own weapons. I guess Hamilton's head is rather large for a reason! Very unexpected and Impressive. :clap:

It will be fun to watch Hamilton continue to mimic and improve upon all of Jenson's best traits and turn them against him; akin to the style of a ruthless general I must say. :whip:

The Smackdown shall continueth.


The tires were shown near the end of the race. Lewis were almost gone. Jenson's were in very good conditions and Fernando's were in-between. So, the tire thing wasnt exactly "solved". Lewis was just faster at some points, got a much better Q and made the pit stops at the right time. It was a solid win, but nowhere near a smackdown...

For example, not to take away... Webber. Why did he stay on those tires for so long?? he should have pitted before Lewis and Fernando caught up. When they did caught up, since it was Lewis in front, his move was first... Fernando could have made the pass on the same spot the next lap, but that time lost behind a limping car cost him the challenge to Lewis, and Webber went in anyway in the next lap...

So......... Lewis won the race, but on BOTH races Jenson could have won. Both because of fuel strategy/management and in Canada his tires were much better than Lewis'. Simply a matter of Lewis doing better in Q (which we all knew he would). But in any case, not a smackdown :wink::)
By What's Burning?
#203222
Comment for Jenson on ESPNF1

"We've got the momentum," he said. "I think it's a surprise that Red Bull are not at the front. They've been so quick at every race. But we've done a better job over the whole weekend, especially at the last two races. "I'm really happy. The last two races I've felt very at home with the team. Qualifying was not so good for me, it's an area I've got to work on closely with my engineers. I'm a little bit off Lewis at the moment, but Lewis has done a phenomenal job. You can't take that away from him. He was so quick in qualifying [at Canada]. But it was nice to be on terms with him in the race. I tried to chase him down at the end but it wasn't to be."


Gotta respect the man for this I've always been a fan of Lewis' raw talent but Jeson has shown nothing but smart smart consistent racing all year long. He's a gentleman competitor.
By Ace-Rimmer
#203251
A lot of people criticised jensen for his lack of results over the years, but he never had a championship contending car untill last year, and he then went and won the championship!

then he gets criticised for only winning with the best car (despite brawn limiting thier development and slipping behind red bull)!

this year he has joined a team with a front running car (not the best) he has a teammate who is considered to be the very top tier of F1 drivers and Jensen is right up there fighting for the championship with two wins to his credit!

perhaps now the naysayers willl show the guy a bit more rspect for his abilities, although I dont expect the die hard blinkered types to!
By Bulletproof
#203264
Looking back to the past (winter testing days)

Anyway.. on to the tyre management. We will see how it goes tomorrow. I honestly don't believe that smooth driving is going to extend tyre life, from it is done at a similar pace to high reaction driving, the tyres might more or less last the same. We see that Hamilton has a consistent 2 tenths to 4 tenths on Button so far, so there is a good tyre management comparison to be made after the fist round of pitstops.


I remember the harsh responses I got from saying this :D . It;s a fact that Jenson's soft tyres finished first in all of the races. :D Even in Canada going by the lap time patterns and Jenson's own admission he just didn't have the tyres nor the speed to close the gap to Hamilton in any meaningful way. In other words the adaptable Hamilton is beating Jenny Boy with Jenson's own weapons. I guess Hamilton's head is rather large for a reason! Very unexpected and Impressive. :clap:

It will be fun to watch Hamilton continue to mimic and improve upon all of Jenson's best traits and turn them against him; akin to the style of a ruthless general I must say. :whip:

The Smackdown shall continueth.




You sound like a bit of a Norman to me. Grow up a little, be a bit more sportsmanlike in your responses. Both great drivers 2 wins apiece!
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