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[Fact Man]

I know it sounds controversial but this came to me in light of the appeal and the points that LH could pick up if the others were punished.

Towards the beginning of the season FA claimed that LH had access to PDR and his car set ups. I'm no expert on the inner workings of F1 teams but are teammates expected to share data. Did Michael share his set up with Rubens, how about kimi and Massa?

The point that I'm trying to make is that if drivers don't have to share set ups, then FA had a role in helping LH collect so many points. Without FA's help (at least at the beginning) LH wouldn't have been able to finish so high. We can assume that he would be somewhere close to Massa in terms of points. Therefore, hadn't been for FA help with the car's set up, the appeal would be worthless.

I hope someone has a better understanding of how things work and can shed a light on this issue. Thanks.

[bud]

well they stopped sharing data quite early on it was reported and Lewis has out performed Fernando on a few occasions since then so to suggest that its all Alonsos doing is crap!

besides the fact remains fact...man that if what youre implying is true then Hamilton beat Fernando with the same car set up the same way impying he is simply... faster!

give Lewis some more experience in F1 and how to setup a car with his engineers then as long as he has a race winning car he will be hard to beat!

[Fact Man]

well they stopped sharing data quite early on it was reported and Lewis has out performed Fernando on a few occasions since then so to suggest that its all Alonsos doing is crap!

besides the fact remains fact...man that if what youre implying is true then Hamilton beat Fernando with the same car set up the same way impying he is simply... faster!

give Lewis some more experience in F1 and how to setup a car with his engineers then as long as he has a race winning car he will be hard to beat!

I never implied that it was all Alonso's doing. If you read my other posts you'll find out that I think that LH is a very talented driver for a rookie and he'll be one of F1's best.

I'm not trying to start some argument in here, I'm tired of it.

I thought about it and want to know how things work within teams. If drivers don't have to share data then one can say that FA did help LH win a few more points that he could have on his own, at least at the beginning. Therefore, their would no room for appeal.

[Fact Man]

Maybe I should have rephrased my title, sorry.

[texasmr2]

Maybe I should have rephrased my title, sorry.

Very shaky ground indeed.

[bud]

The only "team mate" who should be credited for their teamates achievement is Felipe Massa, afterall he gave Kimi the podium in Japan which got him an extra point and then in Brazil he let Kimi beat him in the pit stops .

[darwin dali]

Bud, that's why F1 is considered a team sport. FM (as I stated in another thread already) showed a LOT of team spirit in the past few races. This may have been a bit hard to swallow, especially in Sao Paulo. However, he can be confident that Ferrari in the post-MS era will grant him a fair chance for a title run next year.

[texasmr2]

I believe Ferrari showed how they feel about him with his contract renewal also. I also honestly believe that they will support him in every way when he is in the position too secure his first championship. Felipe showed ALOT of character this past weekend, I would support him in any team he drive's for.

[bud]

I'm not discrediting it DD, all im saying is factman is implying Alonso helped Hamilton out with his setups, when in all honesty Kimi had bigger help from the 3 points that Felipe gave him and he won by 1 point.

[Fact Man]

I'm not discrediting it DD, all im saying is factman is implying Alonso helped Hamilton out with his setups, when in all honesty Kimi had bigger help from the 3 points that Felipe gave him and he won by 1 point.

Well, I agree with you on the Kimi-Massa thing. I didn't think about it in that way. Good point.

[nikon133]

I know it sounds controversial but this came to me in light of the appeal and the points that LH could pick up if the others were punished.

Towards the beginning of the season FA claimed that LH had access to PDR and his car set ups. I'm no expert on the inner workings of F1 teams but are teammates expected to share data. Did Michael share his set up with Rubens, how about kimi and Massa?

The point that I'm trying to make is that if drivers don't have to share set ups, then FA had a role in helping LH collect so many points. Without FA's help (at least at the beginning) LH wouldn't have been able to finish so high. We can assume that he would be somewhere close to Massa in terms of points. Therefore, hadn't been for FA help with the car's set up, the appeal would be worthless.

I hope someone has a better understanding of how things work and can shed a light on this issue. Thanks.

I would expect MS was sharing - specially with youngsters like Massa was at the time - but he was No.1 so he had no issues with that, he's teammates were not really in position to threaten his title fight even if they could take more advantage over that data than MS could (but I don't really think they were that good anyway).

I would expect that Kimi and Massa are sharing their data, but they are equaly experienced so I'd guess it works more like comparing than copying setups.

LH did go down with form after FA anounced he's not sharing any more. LH did also return to form 2 or 3 races latter, but it is hard to say if he made it on his own or team took his side and he was supplied with FA data again, even against FA wishes.

[Fact Man]

I know it sounds controversial but this came to me in light of the appeal and the points that LH could pick up if the others were punished.

Towards the beginning of the season FA claimed that LH had access to PDR and his car set ups. I'm no expert on the inner workings of F1 teams but are teammates expected to share data. Did Michael share his set up with Rubens, how about kimi and Massa?

The point that I'm trying to make is that if drivers don't have to share set ups, then FA had a role in helping LH collect so many points. Without FA's help (at least at the beginning) LH wouldn't have been able to finish so high. We can assume that he would be somewhere close to Massa in terms of points. Therefore, hadn't been for FA help with the car's set up, the appeal would be worthless.

I hope someone has a better understanding of how things work and can shed a light on this issue. Thanks.

I would expect MS was sharing - specially with youngsters like Massa was at the time - but he was No.1 so he had no issues with that, he's teammates were not really in position to threaten his title fight even if they could take more advantage over that data than MS could (but I don't really think they were that good anyway).

I would expect that Kimi and Massa are sharing their data, but they are equaly experienced so I'd guess it works more like comparing than copying setups.

LH did go down with form after FA anounced he's not sharing any more. LH did also return to form 2 or 3 races latter, but it is hard to say if he made it on his own or team took his side and he was supplied with FA data again, even against FA wishes.

Interesting thoughts. My take on this issue is that for the few races that LH had access to FA's set up, it could have helped him gain a few more points than he could have on his own. So it wasn't very equal to both drivers since one benefited from the other more.

[Ruby]

Felipe showed ALOT of character this past weekend, I would support him in any team he drive's for.

Totally agree Texas, I liked him before but I have serious respect for him after Brazil.

[f1ea]

Hmm yes this is a touchy subject.

To me every driver benefits in some way by his teammate's knowledge, this is why you always find people willing to be no.2 and why you always find younger drivers very happy to ride along experienced ones, but that's competitive racing! and the guy who can benefit more from everything around him then obviously deserves whatever benefits this brings...

The thing is that in Mclaren's case... you had Lewis getting 'some' background on set-up data (roughly until mid-season); then Alonso felt Mclaren were backing Lewis slightly over him and felt that indeed Mclaren was racing Alonso not Ferrari... then about Hungary, the team obviously increased their support on Lewis; and you can tell by how all of a sudden Alonso started losing 6/10 s in Q3, Lewis playing the mental game on Alonso, Lewis getting the 'extra' hot lap etc... even in Brazil, Alonso was considerably slower than Hamilton, i find this extremely difficult to believe.

Lewis may be good, but Alonso is not that slow, and he showed Dennis that he could have won the WDC. If not Dennis, I think he showed everyone, including the hardest Lewis supporters (Lewis' talent aside).

This was very long..... i gotta learn from Kimi

[Ron Dennis]

Bud, that's why F1 is considered a team sport. FM (as I stated in another thread already) showed a LOT of team spirit in the past few races. This may have been a bit hard to swallow, especially in Sao Paulo. However, he can be confident that Ferrari in the post-MS era will grant him a fair chance for a title run next year.

You are actually quite wrong, what Massa did was to break the rules as set by the FIA - the one about team orders. So its not considered a team sport by the FIA as defined by you.

The stopped within one lap of each other yet Massa came in several laps before Kimi on his second stint and Kimi (oddly enough) came out after his stop in the lead. Ferrari pissed in the face of all sports fans and yet the loyal supporters of that team applaud them doing so - you know the loyal fans dont you - the ones who demanded penalties against McLaren because they cheated!!!!!!!