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[Gaz]

I think you missed my point; Webber doesn't deserve to be #1 but also doesn't deserve to be #2 either, both drivers should be equal which doesn't seem to be the case given the recent blaming of Mark Webber for a crash that was caused by Vettel pulling to the right before he was clear; misjudgement maybe; he is a young driver but his intimation that Webber was crazy is completely unfair and the team blaming Webber wholesale is complete and utter nonsense; Vettel is the golden boy despite Webber matching him this season and last. As for coded messages; I don't believe that Mark would have conceded the position willingly as he had done all the hard work and have to give up the win because he was instructed to "turn down" his engine. There is something fishy going on as Vettel had pushed as hard as Webber throughout the race...

Until its provened otherwise, Webber hasn't matched Vettel this season, only Spain and Monaco. Vettel is a young driver and coming in contact with his teammate with a few laps to go, in the heat of the moment, the way Vettel acted is understandable but I haven't heard the team blaming Webber for the incident after they reviewed all the data.

Erm i'm sorry but in the past 3 races Webber has not just matched Vettle he has beaten him.

Fine Vettle is young but this is his 3rd/4th year in F1 he made a mistake.

Lewis has been in F1 just abit longer than Vettle (but vettle has been driving a F1 car perhaps a little more if you consider all of vettles 2006 friding testing.)

And Lewis and Jenson manged to race side by side though a chicane for longer without hitting each other.

This proves that vettle is just a fast lap driver who can't overtake without making skittish panic striken moves.

[f1ea]

We are know Vettel wasn't .5 second quicker, it was just an example that gave that the team could have sued to verbally communicate to Webber. Like I said, I don't blame either driver but facts remained, Webber was asked to change fuel mixture because like Button and Lewis, he was low and Vettel wasn't. End of the day, Hornet has responsibility to the team and he must play with the hand that is dealt and not who's #1 or #2, Hornet should have called for Vettel to pass to increase their odds and not doing anything would just compromise both their positions and the end result was it compromised both positions. At you have to do is look at Mclaren's strategy, they let Button race Hamilton at the end knowing that Button had the faster car at the end, after a few corners they decided to call the boys back and radio Button to "turn the mixture down", it was a simple message to Button to stay behind LH.

[Matkins]

And Lewis and Jenson manged to race side by side though a chicane for longer without hitting each other.

This proves that vettle is just a fast lap driver who can't overtake without making skittish panic striken moves.

Insert "frickin" after "just a".

Regarding the incident. I say it's mostly Vettle's fault for assuming he was past when he was only half past. Vettle's move right to get a better line through the next corner was too sudden, at too high speed, whilst too close to the other car.

Having said that, I believe Webber wouldn't give Vettle even an inch of space if he can physically and legally help it. Before the last race he must had seen Vettle as his main championship rival. When you see your main rival coming past, and it means that much, you become a lot more awkward than you normally would be, for perfectly good reason. But from the team perspective, that's not good at all.

I don't think Red Bull favor Vettle. If they do, then they're idiots, and I don't think a team that goes from the back of the grid to the front in 5 years are idiots. Horner said he wished they gave each other more space. I know in most people's heads that sounds like "it was Marks fault", but "give more space" is all a team boss can say. They can't say "dont make mistakes", because the drivers are only human.

[myownalias]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84093

Red Bull Racing boss Christian Horner has revealed that Mark Webber asked for Sebastian Vettel to 'back off' from him the lap before their collision in the Turkish Grand Prix.

Vettel was attempting to pass Webber for the lead approaching the final corners on lap 41 of the race when contact between them left Vettel with race-ending damage and dropped Webber from first to third - handing McLaren a one-two.

Although Webber had led the race from the outset, Vettel closed on him just prior to the crash and, in an exclusive interview with AUTOSPORT, Horner said Webber had radioed the team asking if Vettel could ease off - a request Red Bull was unwilling to allow with the McLarens of Lewis Hamilton and Jenson Button close behind.

"It was quite clear that with the speed advantage the McLarens had on the straight, it was impossible to fall back into them," Horner told AUTOSPORT.

"Mark had requested the lap before to ask Sebastian to back off a bit. There was no way you could do that because of the McLarens being right there."

Horner acknowledged that Vettel had the faster pace at the time of the incident.

"It looked like Mark started to struggle with the rear tyres a bit more - that's what it looked like on the pit wall," said Horner. "And Sebastian, between laps 38 and 39, really closed up rapidly to the back of Mark, obviously got a run on him on lap 40 and they both found themselves in a situation they didn't want to be in."

He remains confident that the crash has not done irrevocable damage to the intra-team relationship.

"We're fortunate that both our guys are mature, balanced individuals," Horner said. "Obviously emotions were running high on Sunday, but they're both professionals.

"They are probably not going to be down the pub for a drink together, but they will continue to work professionally in the manner that they have done in the forthcoming races. They work for the team at the end of the day and they know what the rules are."

What this says to me is that Webber was expendable; as Webber would have been a sitting duck for the McLarens after conceding the lead to Vettel; having already turned down his engine; which again seems to suggest that Red Bull are favouring Vettel over Webber.

[88mph]

If roles were reversed, would Webber be asked to hold the McLarens up to give Vettel a safer lead?

Interesting to see if this happens latter in the season

[bmwpower]

I think you missed my point; Webber doesn't deserve to be #1 but also doesn't deserve to be #2 either, both drivers should be equal which doesn't seem to be the case given the recent blaming of Mark Webber for a crash that was caused by Vettel pulling to the right before he was clear; misjudgement maybe; he is a young driver but his intimation that Webber was crazy is completely unfair and the team blaming Webber wholesale is complete and utter nonsense; Vettel is the golden boy despite Webber matching him this season and last. As for coded messages; I don't believe that Mark would have conceded the position willingly as he had done all the hard work and have to give up the win because he was instructed to "turn down" his engine. There is something fishy going on as Vettel had pushed as hard as Webber throughout the race...

Until its provened otherwise, Webber hasn't matched Vettel this season, only Spain and Monaco. Vettel is a young driver and coming in contact with his teammate with a few laps to go, in the heat of the moment, the way Vettel acted is understandable but I haven't heard the team blaming Webber for the incident after they reviewed all the data.

Erm i'm sorry but in the past 3 races Webber has not just matched Vettle he has beaten him.

Fine Vettle is young but this is his 3rd/4th year in F1 he made a mistake.

Lewis has been in F1 just abit longer than Vettle (but vettle has been driving a F1 car perhaps a little more if you consider all of vettles 2006 friding testing.)

And Lewis and Jenson manged to race side by side though a chicane for longer without hitting each other.

This proves that vettle is just a fast lap driver who can't overtake without making skittish panic striken moves.

mmm, isn't that what I said, Webber beat Vettel in Spain and Monaco, but Vettel had the advantage at the end of Turkey being .4 seconds faster two laps before they crashed, that being said, where was Webber the first four races?

[bmwpower]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84093

Red Bull Racing boss Christian Horner has revealed that Mark Webber asked for Sebastian Vettel to 'back off' from him the lap before their collision in the Turkish Grand Prix.

Vettel was attempting to pass Webber for the lead approaching the final corners on lap 41 of the race when contact between them left Vettel with race-ending damage and dropped Webber from first to third - handing McLaren a one-two.

Although Webber had led the race from the outset, Vettel closed on him just prior to the crash and, in an exclusive interview with AUTOSPORT, Horner said Webber had radioed the team asking if Vettel could ease off - a request Red Bull was unwilling to allow with the McLarens of Lewis Hamilton and Jenson Button close behind.

"It was quite clear that with the speed advantage the McLarens had on the straight, it was impossible to fall back into them," Horner told AUTOSPORT.

"Mark had requested the lap before to ask Sebastian to back off a bit. There was no way you could do that because of the McLarens being right there."

Horner acknowledged that Vettel had the faster pace at the time of the incident.

"It looked like Mark started to struggle with the rear tyres a bit more - that's what it looked like on the pit wall," said Horner. "And Sebastian, between laps 38 and 39, really closed up rapidly to the back of Mark, obviously got a run on him on lap 40 and they both found themselves in a situation they didn't want to be in."

He remains confident that the crash has not done irrevocable damage to the intra-team relationship.

"We're fortunate that both our guys are mature, balanced individuals," Horner said. "Obviously emotions were running high on Sunday, but they're both professionals.

"They are probably not going to be down the pub for a drink together, but they will continue to work professionally in the manner that they have done in the forthcoming races. They work for the team at the end of the day and they know what the rules are."

What this says to me is that Webber was expendable; as Webber would have been a sitting duck for the McLarens after conceding the lead to Vettel; having already turned down his engine; which again seems to suggest that Red Bull are favouring Vettel over Webber.

Wrong, Red Bull favored the driver with the best car at the end of the race, Vettel was .4sec faster then Webber BEFORE Webber was asked to change his fuel mixture. It doesn't make any sense to keep a faster car behind a slower car and increaseing your odds of getting beaten. If Red Bull "favored" Vettel over Webber, then Webber would have not won Spain and Monaco.

[bud]

Again he was not .4 faster it was .1 a lap. Horner has said this! And he was only faster due to the team telling mark to save fuel!

[Dj_polly12]

I think you missed my point; Webber doesn't deserve to be #1 but also doesn't deserve to be #2 either, both drivers should be equal which doesn't seem to be the case given the recent blaming of Mark Webber for a crash that was caused by Vettel pulling to the right before he was clear; misjudgement maybe; he is a young driver but his intimation that Webber was crazy is completely unfair and the team blaming Webber wholesale is complete and utter nonsense; Vettel is the golden boy despite Webber matching him this season and last. As for coded messages; I don't believe that Mark would have conceded the position willingly as he had done all the hard work and have to give up the win because he was instructed to "turn down" his engine. There is something fishy going on as Vettel had pushed as hard as Webber throughout the race...

Until its provened otherwise, Webber hasn't matched Vettel this season, only Spain and Monaco. Vettel is a young driver and coming in contact with his teammate with a few laps to go, in the heat of the moment, the way Vettel acted is understandable but I haven't heard the team blaming Webber for the incident after they reviewed all the data.

Erm i'm sorry but in the past 3 races Webber has not just matched Vettle he has beaten him.

Fine Vettle is young but this is his 3rd/4th year in F1 he made a mistake.

Lewis has been in F1 just abit longer than Vettle (but vettle has been driving a F1 car perhaps a little more if you consider all of vettles 2006 friding testing.)

And Lewis and Jenson manged to race side by side though a chicane for longer without hitting each other.

This proves that vettle is just a fast lap driver who can't overtake without making skittish panic striken moves.

Hmmm.. not QUITE true.
Here are some results from 08 in Vettels forst full season.

Grand Prix Date Team Grid Race Position Points Total


Monaco 25 May 2008 STR-Ferrari 19 5 4 4
Canadian 08 Jun 2008 STR-Ferrari 19 8 1 5
Belgian 07 Sep 2008 STR-Ferrari 10 5 4 13
Japanese 12 Oct 2008 STR-Ferrari 9 6 3 30
Brazilian 02 Nov 2008 STR-Ferrari 7 4 5 35

Now although only a few races, for a debut season a pretty outstanding season in a Torro Rosso.

[elfinitty]

What the hell's wrong with that dog??

He's still upset after Bruno Senna killed his mate last year, its brought back bad memories.

LEWISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
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SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS LOL

The post which i agree on mostly in this thread,maybe in any thread

[Gaz]

I think you missed my point; Webber doesn't deserve to be #1 but also doesn't deserve to be #2 either, both drivers should be equal which doesn't seem to be the case given the recent blaming of Mark Webber for a crash that was caused by Vettel pulling to the right before he was clear; misjudgement maybe; he is a young driver but his intimation that Webber was crazy is completely unfair and the team blaming Webber wholesale is complete and utter nonsense; Vettel is the golden boy despite Webber matching him this season and last. As for coded messages; I don't believe that Mark would have conceded the position willingly as he had done all the hard work and have to give up the win because he was instructed to "turn down" his engine. There is something fishy going on as Vettel had pushed as hard as Webber throughout the race...

Until its provened otherwise, Webber hasn't matched Vettel this season, only Spain and Monaco. Vettel is a young driver and coming in contact with his teammate with a few laps to go, in the heat of the moment, the way Vettel acted is understandable but I haven't heard the team blaming Webber for the incident after they reviewed all the data.

Erm i'm sorry but in the past 3 races Webber has not just matched Vettle he has beaten him.

Fine Vettle is young but this is his 3rd/4th year in F1 he made a mistake.

Lewis has been in F1 just abit longer than Vettle (but vettle has been driving a F1 car perhaps a little more if you consider all of vettles 2006 friding testing.)

And Lewis and Jenson manged to race side by side though a chicane for longer without hitting each other.

This proves that vettle is just a fast lap driver who can't overtake without making skittish panic striken moves.

Hmmm.. not QUITE true.
Here are some results from 08 in Vettels forst full season.

Grand Prix Date Team Grid Race Position Points Total


Monaco 25 May 2008 STR-Ferrari 19 5 4 4
Canadian 08 Jun 2008 STR-Ferrari 19 8 1 5
Belgian 07 Sep 2008 STR-Ferrari 10 5 4 13
Japanese 12 Oct 2008 STR-Ferrari 9 6 3 30
Brazilian 02 Nov 2008 STR-Ferrari 7 4 5 35

Now although only a few races, for a debut season a pretty outstanding season in a Torro Rosso.

What part of my post isn't quite true?

[Big Azza]

Vettel is great!

Now... both drivers share an element of blame. It's a racing incident and that's that.

Just out of curiosity when Barichello finished second to Button, how many people kept saying how bias that was? That the team favoured Button?

The fact that Vettel was faster than Mark, which was evident as soon as he left Pits shows that he should have overtaken Mark. If Vettel was prevented from overtaking Mark - would that be more bias when he clearly had the faster car?

A majority of you guys seem to base your opinions prejudice rather than fact? You guys despise Vettel so much you are blinded. So whatever principal applies for Mark doesn't apply to Vettel? I'm sick of it! I hear it all the time! One driver you instantly don't like and you'll twist any rule/principal just to favour another driver!

It's a racing incident. Neither is to blame - but I feel more inclined to supporting Vettel here just because of all these two-faced opinions from everyone!

Why am I here for anyway?

[Gaz]

:clap:

Vettel is great!

Now... both drivers share an element of blame. It's a racing incident and that's that.

Nope 100% Vettles fault he turned in on Mark.

Just out of curiosity when Barichello finished second to Button, how many people kept saying how bias that was? That the team favoured Button?

The fact that Vettel was faster than Mark, which was evident as soon as he left Pits shows that he should have overtaken Mark. If Vettel was prevented from overtaking Mark - would that be more bias when he clearly had the faster car?

yes but the reason that Vettle was faster was engineered by the team, - Webber was asked to save fuel.

A majority of you guys seem to base your opinions prejudice rather than fact? You guys despise Vettel so much you are blinded. So whatever principal applies for Mark doesn't apply to Vettel? I'm sick of it! I hear it all the time! One driver you instantly don't like and you'll twist any rule/principal just to favour another driver!

You sir, are a hypocrit you just labled the colison as a racing incident - even Martin Brundle who is completely non-bias said it was "100% Vettles fault"

It's a racing incident. Neither is to blame - but I feel more inclined to supporting Vettel here just because of all these two-faced opinions from everyone!

Why am I here for anyway?

Everyone is giving Vettle stick because he made a mistake that cost the team and 1-2 then to make it worse he did a stupid "crazy" guesture directed at Mark imiditaly after the crash, followed by not admiting his mistake, finally he hid behind the team while they defending him and blasted Mark.

So hes a bad racing driver, a ingnorant little poo, and a coward.

[
Wrong, Red Bull favored the driver with the best car at the end of the race, Vettel was .4sec faster then Webber BEFORE Webber was asked to change his fuel mixture. It doesn't make any sense to keep a faster car behind a slower car and increaseing your odds of getting beaten. If Red Bull "favored" Vettel over Webber, then Webber would have not won Spain and Monaco.

as Bud says it was .1 sec due to the fact Webber was saving fuel.

What didn't make sense if for them to not just hold station and take a 1-2 Lewis wasn't going to be able to get past Vettle since he would of been starting to fuel save also.

But fair enough the red bulls told webber to fuel save to engineer it so vettle would take the lead it backfired on them and they lost a 1-2.

Its clear the the teams owners support Vettle since the reaction of Hemut Marko was clearly pro-vettle.

Not sure about the team itself, as it seams each driver has his own supporters.

[f1ea]

What didn't make sense if for them to not just hold station and take a 1-2 Lewis wasn't going to be able to get past Vettle since he would of been starting to fuel save also.

Yeah, but Red Bull didnt have a way of knowing this (at that time).

I still think it was Vettel's fault. But not because of some elaborate plot, but rather because he lost his head having Lewis behind and trying to pass Mark on probably his last lap/opportunity with optimum fuel. Vettel went all out, Webber didnt move over. Some people can blame Mark for not moving over, but he didnt have to (he didnt initiate the move), it was Vettel's pass to make and stick.

[Big Azza]

What didn't make sense if for them to not just hold station and take a 1-2 Lewis wasn't going to be able to get past Vettle since he would of been starting to fuel save also.

Yeah, but Red Bull didnt have a way of knowing this (at that time).

I still think it was Vettel's fault. But not because of some elaborate plot, but rather because he lost his head having Lewis behind and trying to pass Mark on probably his last lap/opportunity with optimum fuel. Vettel went all out, Webber didnt move over. Some people can blame Mark for not moving over, but he didnt have to (he didnt initiate the move), it was Vettel's pass to make and stick.

I agree with most of that too.

Either driver is at fault. Seeing as I equally love my Red Bull Drivers nothing will change from this. Maybe I'll slightly lean towards Vettel because I want him to make up these points lost. The WDC should have Red Bull 1 and 2.