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[f1ea]

Why were only Webber, Button and Lewis on fuel save? Good question, you'll have to ask Horner, maybe a botched attempt to get Vettel past, it would account for the blame being laid at Webbers door

The reason to tell both mclaren drivers to save fuel is becuse it was probably a coded message to save tyres, fuel and brakes and not race to the end, otherwise both might not get to the end. No Button doesnt have to obey it , but its a foolish line to take. Either he got the meassge but still had a pop at Lewis or he didnt get it for some reason. Either way when Lewis saw him racin he raced back. Then they both had to fuel save.

In response to both of those quotes...

@ FactMan
- The reason webber had to conserve fuel is because he was pushing ALOT harder than Vettel due to Hamilton chasing his bottom for ages at speeds/lap times what were NOT expected, Just look at Mercedes and the other cars behind they got left behind.. did they even see any action after the first lap?? No.
- Basically, Vettel wasn't having to push quite as much thus making him not need to safe fuel.

- Regarding the button overtake anr obaying orders, team orders are an accepted pratice in F1 and a driver should know that if in fuel saving mode it means bring the cars home (we need the points) don't do anything stupid.
- The reason they told Hamilton that both of them were having to save fuel is to try and prevent them from squabbling over places. If you see a crash what took a driver out the race and lost another driver vital points... doesn't it seem pretty damn foolish to copy them?

- Also, did you notice that Button had to drop back alot more after the move than before they were asked to save fuel. Buttons car had to be put into fuel saving after the move to a higher degree than Hamilton.

- It was a very silly move, I do understand that the are racing.. but it was a team order and someone with common sense would of known or understood what the message ment..

@ racechick
- Hamilton and Button were fueled on what they understood and worked out they would use, but due to the pace of the top 4 cars at the start they ate alot more fuel, however Vettel had just enough fuel to get him to the end of race pace, but Webber had to push alot more because of Hamilton.
- Also, The McLarens both had to push super hard to keep with the RedBulls...we all know the RB is the fastest and best car on the track (disregarding reliablity) so.. yeah.

- I like your understanding on Buttons move, indeed he might not of bot the message for some reason but to me it seemed to me and still does that the move was a jealous one

Button and Hamilton were not on fuel save at the same time.

Lewis spent pretty much all race pushing and trying to overtake either Mark or Vettel. He was the one who spent the most fuel out of the top 4 (this is my opinion, ie not what the teams or data will disclose; but I'm pretty sure i'm right).

The Mclarens are not that far from Red Bull. So, i dont think Lewis running out of fuel had to do more with Mclaren's lack of pace rel. to Red Bull rather than the specific driving/racing conditions of their drivers.

Button made the move because he still had fuel left to push and caught up when Lewis had to slow down to save fuel earlier. Maybe Mclaren didnt realize Jenson would have been able to catch Lewis or maybe they only told Lewis to save fuel because he was the only one running out of fuel, maybe they told Lewis both were on fuel save because Lewis would have kept on pushing if he thought Jenson was going to be able to pass him... who knows. Maybe they only told Button to save fuel because they didnt want him to keep pushing and risk a take out... again who knows. Who cares actually. They raced, they got the 1-2, they kept the prssure on RB and they forced Vettel to try a harsh move. Well done by Mclaren i think.

[madbrad]

I can't see why Red Bull would want to put Vettel ahead of Webber or choose Vettel as "their man", unless unbeknownst to me Horner likes Vettel and doesn't like Webber.

[bmwpower]

While everyone is either blaming Sebastian "You're Crazy" Vettel or Mark "No, You're Crazy" Webber, the blame squarely falls on who ever was calling the race for Red Bull. Vettel had the faster car the last few laps because he had more few and was abled to push, Mark had to conserve therefore he had the slower car, Hornet should have gotten on the radio to tell Mark let Vettel pass. Hornet has responsiblity to the team not the drivers and that means if Vettel was dealt with the faster car at the end of the race then Hornet needed to make the decision to bring Vettel home first.

[myownalias]

In reality the team can not call on one of their drivers to let another past; team orders are officially banned; not to say it doesn't happen but it's more coded messages or in the briefing before the race. In my opinion the only team order should be don't take each other out. If such a brazen call was made over the radio; almost certainly Red Bull would have been excluded from the race. It's clear to all now that Red Bull consider Mark Webber to be clear #2 which is complete bullpoo as Mark has out driven Vettel in the last few races and is leading the championship. I really don't believe that Mark will play second fiddle to anyone; is that is going to be the case I can see him hanging up his helmet at the end of the season or go off to pastures new, and I have to say I wouldn't blame him, it's better to be on equal footing in a less competitive car than be a driver that isn't allowed to win unless his team mate is already out of contention; I don't see Webber wanting to be a Barrichello type character.

[88mph]

The crash was a blessing in disguise.

Webber is 15 points ahead of Pettel, had they not crashed Webber would be at best 7 points ahead.

[bmwpower]

In reality the team can not call on one of their drivers to let another past; team orders are officially banned; not to say it doesn't happen but it's more coded messages or in the briefing before the race. In my opinion the only team order should be don't take each other out. If such a brazen call was made over the radio; almost certainly Red Bull would have been excluded from the race. It's clear to all now that Red Bull consider Mark Webber to be clear #2 which is complete bullpoo as Mark has out driven Vettel in the last few races and is leading the championship. I really don't believe that Mark will play second fiddle to anyone; is that is going to be the case I can see him hanging up his helmet at the end of the season or go off to pastures new, and I have to say I wouldn't blame him, it's better to be on equal footing in a less competitive car than be a driver that isn't allowed to win unless his team mate is already out of contention; I don't see Webber wanting to be a Barrichello type character.

Teams do it all the time, a simple message over the radio to Webber "Mark, Vettell is faster, about .5 second faster" would have done it. As for you believing Mark has outperformed Vettel and its complete "bullpoo" to consider Webber to be #2, the same arguement could be made in reverse. Yes Webber outperformed Vettel the last half races but where was he the first half races? Vettel had 37 pts through the first three races and that includes one DNF in Australia after leading the race (25more points for total of 62pts if he didn't have mechanical failure and finished the race), Webber had 24pts after 3 races and he completed all three. Lets said they finished in the order before their crash with Webber p1 and Vettel p2, Webber would have 79 points the last four races and Sebastian would have 59pts. Giving the scenerio that they both completed all their races this year in the order without their crash or mechanical failure, Webber would have 103 pts (79+24) vs. Vettel 121pts ( 62+59). So the question is Webber a true #1, he outperformed Vettel in Spain and Monaco, Vettel outperformed in Britain, Aus, Mas, CHN, and Turkey (yes turkey cause without the accidental Vettel would have been long gone while the rest was trying to conserve fuel).

[myownalias]

I think you missed my point; Webber doesn't deserve to be #1 but also doesn't deserve to be #2 either, both drivers should be equal which doesn't seem to be the case given the recent blaming of Mark Webber for a crash that was caused by Vettel pulling to the right before he was clear; misjudgement maybe; he is a young driver but his intimation that Webber was crazy is completely unfair and the team blaming Webber wholesale is complete and utter nonsense; Vettel is the golden boy despite Webber matching him this season and last. As for coded messages; I don't believe that Mark would have conceded the position willingly as he had done all the hard work and have to give up the win because he was instructed to "turn down" his engine. There is something fishy going on as Vettel had pushed as hard as Webber throughout the race...

[bud]

Vettel wasnt half a second quicker, once Webber changed his mix Vettel was gaining on Webber .100 a lap. I dont see why Mark should yield when the team told him to change his fuel mix and let Sebastian still have full power.

How would you feel being the leader from Pole which you earned have the team tell you "hey mate turn your fuel ratio down to conserve, oh and let Vettel pass you because he can have a few laps more than you on the higher ratio. thats a good Aussie."

Vettel outperformed in Britain, Aus, Mas, CHN, and Turkey (yes turkey cause without the accidental Vettel would have been long gone while the rest was trying to conserve fuel).

more If Vettel knew how to pass he may have had Mark, or then again Mark might have done a Lewis and regained it on the straight having turned his revs up to make a pass on the main straight.

end of the day BMWPower Vettel stuffed up the team stuffed up and the guy who got pole and was leading from pole got bottom reamed by his team mate and the team heirachy. You have no argument from me who Redbull consider their #1, its the little sooky Kraut!

[madbrad]

Vettel was slower because he had a broken chassis for 2 races. A new Chassis in Turkey put him back into form. his setup also gave him a slight top speed advantage over Webber, for what that's worth.

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

While everyone is either blaming Sebastian "You're Crazy" Vettel or Mark "No, You're Crazy" Webber, the blame squarely falls on who ever was calling the race for Red Bull....

RBR are saying Webber's race engineer, Ciaron Pilbeam, had "a blackout" which is the new Red Bull-speak for a cock-up. The uncaused first cause was that he failed to prepare Webber for being overtaken by his teammate. Ban or no, the teams all have code-speak they use to convey their directions but maintain the facade of impartiality. Pilbeam could have told Webber, "Lewis is coming up fast. You must conserve fuel so that once Vettel is past, you will have sufficient remaining to fend him off."

[bud]

hang on Webber is leading the championship why should he have to let his main title contender go past him? Even though Redbull say Hamilton was pushing Vettel he was not at all near him to make any pass and it didnt look like he was going to either. What Redbull should have done if they wanted a `1-2 as they keep saying was instruct Vettel to conserve fuel at the same time Webber was told to. He only had the better part of a lap left of the optimum fuel mix before the prang so to say he was faster and was going to continue to be faster is just BS!
End of the day Redbull wanted Vettel to win.

[headless]

Funny thing is, pre race, in the BBC build up, one of the main topics was how Red Bull have such a good team spirit!

[bmwpower]

Vettel wasnt half a second quicker, once Webber changed his mix Vettel was gaining on Webber .100 a lap. I dont see why Mark should yield when the team told him to change his fuel mix and let Sebastian still have full power.

How would you feel being the leader from Pole which you earned have the team tell you "hey mate turn your fuel ratio down to conserve, oh and let Vettel pass you because he can have a few laps more than you on the higher ratio. thats a good Aussie." :bs:

Vettel outperformed in Britain, Aus, Mas, CHN, and Turkey (yes turkey cause without the accidental Vettel would have been long gone while the rest was trying to conserve fuel).

more If Vettel knew how to pass he may have had Mark, or then again Mark might have done a Lewis and regained it on the straight having turned his revs up to make a pass on the main straight.

end of the day BMWPower Vettel stuffed up the team stuffed up and the guy who got pole and was leading from pole got bottom reamed by his team mate and the team heirachy. You have no argument from me who Redbull consider their #1, its the little sooky Kraut!

We are know Vettel wasn't .5 second quicker, it was just an example that gave that the team could have sued to verbally communicate to Webber. Like I said, I don't blame either driver but facts remained, Webber was asked to change fuel mixture because like Button and Lewis, he was low and Vettel wasn't. End of the day, Hornet has responsibility to the team and he must play with the hand that is dealt and not who's #1 or #2, Hornet should have called for Vettel to pass to increase their odds and not doing anything would just compromise both their positions and the end result was it compromised both positions. At you have to do is look at Mclaren's strategy, they let Button race Hamilton at the end knowing that Button had the faster car at the end, after a few corners they decided to call the boys back and radio Button to "turn the mixture down", it was a simple message to Button to stay behind LH.

[bmwpower]

hang on Webber is leading the championship why should he have to let his main title contender go past him? Even though Redbull say Hamilton was pushing Vettel he was not at all near him to make any pass and it didnt look like he was going to either. What Redbull should have done if they wanted a `1-2 as they keep saying was instruct Vettel to conserve fuel at the same time Webber was told to. He only had the better part of a lap left of the optimum fuel mix before the prang so to say he was faster and was going to continue to be faster is just BS!
End of the day Redbull wanted Vettel to win.

Either way neither is to blamed because Hornet never instructed neither driver to preserve a 1-2, nothing came on the radio for both drivers.

[bmwpower]

I think you missed my point; Webber doesn't deserve to be #1 but also doesn't deserve to be #2 either, both drivers should be equal which doesn't seem to be the case given the recent blaming of Mark Webber for a crash that was caused by Vettel pulling to the right before he was clear; misjudgement maybe; he is a young driver but his intimation that Webber was crazy is completely unfair and the team blaming Webber wholesale is complete and utter nonsense; Vettel is the golden boy despite Webber matching him this season and last. As for coded messages; I don't believe that Mark would have conceded the position willingly as he had done all the hard work and have to give up the win because he was instructed to "turn down" his engine. There is something fishy going on as Vettel had pushed as hard as Webber throughout the race...

Until its provened otherwise, Webber hasn't matched Vettel this season, only Spain and Monaco. Vettel is a young driver and coming in contact with his teammate with a few laps to go, in the heat of the moment, the way Vettel acted is understandable but I haven't heard the team blaming Webber for the incident after they reviewed all the data.