FORUMula1.com

[darwin dali]

All this unrestircted aero stuff sounds wonderfull, but in the real world. It's just a silly dream.

If aerodynamicists where let lose with aero, and engines were unrestricted, we'd have insane top speeds and cornering speeds. Your talking about drivers blacking out here. Cars that are impossible to drive. There's a reason things have to be restricted in F1. Ground effects weren't taken away for no good reason.

F1 and racing is suspose to be entertaining in my opinion. I'd rather watch tense, wheel to wheel action, than a technical processional showcase about who can spend the most money. If impressive tech has to be dropped in order to get some great action, then I'm all for it.


Unfortunatly absoultely everyone has an opinion, and right now it seems too many cooks are spoiling the broth. No ones quite sure what F1 wants to be.

A severe decrease in fuel allowance year after year will take care of all your concerns. I'm talking SEVERE curtailing of fuel, like the first year 100 liters per race, the following year 75 liters, then 50 liters, 40, 30, 20, 10 and eventually no fossil fuel at all. That'll keep the engine designers busy and all the aero aids the aero dynamicists can come up with won't help much if they can't design a lean and mean engine that actually is capable of finishing a race with the allotted fuel.

[What's Burning?]

A severe decrease in fuel allowance year after year will take care of all your concerns. I'm talking SEVERE curtailing of fuel, like the first year 100 liters per race, the following year 75 liters, then 50 liters, 40, 30, 20, 10 and eventually no fossil fuel at all. That'll keep the engine designers busy and all the aero aids the aero dynamicists can come up with won't help much if they can't design a lean and mean engine that actually is capable of finishing a race with the allotted fuel.

In the end, we'd be watching cycling in the grand tours.

The bicycle is the most efficient mode of transport we've been able to come up with after hundreds of years.

[Jensonb]

there aren't any under 4.0L 8cyl engines on the road

Not true. Plenty of manufacturers are using small engines with low displacement. Even Aston martin is making one. The Chevrolet Volt/Opel Ampera/Vauxhaul Ampera uses one too. We're talking about using higher displacement than these road cars and turbo-charging them. Obviously, they'd also be physically larger than the ones in these kinds of cars. These F1 cars would go like stink and they'd be very economical on fuel.

[Trypt]

A severe decrease in fuel allowance year after year will take care of all your concerns. I'm talking SEVERE curtailing of fuel, like the first year 100 liters per race, the following year 75 liters, then 50 liters, 40, 30, 20, 10 and eventually no fossil fuel at all

What would that accomplish? A slower and slower F1 car every year. Great plan there bud. While I'm looking forward to an electric racing circuit, I don't see what F1 would have to do with that, F1 is about the top combustion engine technology.

That being said, it would be interesting to see the top companies compete in a F1 type circuit (big investment into research/development), but with their new electric solutions. There is no need to hijack F1 to make that happen.

[texasmr2]

I will chance a guess that none of us F1 fans are happy about the path that F1 is on and frankly I'm scared, someone hold me .

[stonemonkey]

I don't get it, how did this discussion get onto fuel at all? Who cares about how much fuel they use, this is F1 for crying out loud. The less fuel an engine uses, the less mass the car has to carry around, so this is good for the team as it is, and a huge incentive, there is no regulation necessary. As far as the public is concerned, I really don't think the people watching the race on race-day care if they have to breathe in 10% more or less nitrogen and sulphur compounds then usual. Don't let me get started on the environment, as if the atmosphere cares whether F1 uses V12s or I4s, lol, get real.

Anyhow, back to my original question. Does anyone have any idea what limit would be good to put on naturally aspirated engine size in order for manufacturers to be competitive against a 1.5L turbo no-boost-limit engine?

Say Ferrari gets to build a 3.5L V12 naturally aspirated engine, no limit on research and development cost. Could they build an engine that would compete with a 1.5L no boost limit turbo? By compete, I mean power, reliability, fuel consumption, everything which matters on race day.

If the cars were given an allowance of fuel for the race then the teams could be given total freedom on what engine type/ size/ configuration/ energy recovery etc. they use. I don't really care too much about a racecars fuel consuption but it could encourage a lot of innovation that could filter down to production cars. That, and the current engine regs are terrible.

If that ever happened then tyour other questions might be answered.

[stonemonkey]

All this unrestircted aero stuff sounds wonderfull, but in the real world. It's just a silly dream.

If aerodynamicists where let lose with aero, and engines were unrestricted, we'd have insane top speeds and cornering speeds. Your talking about drivers blacking out here. Cars that are impossible to drive. There's a reason things have to be restricted in F1. Ground effects weren't taken away for no good reason.

F1 and racing is suspose to be entertaining in my opinion. I'd rather watch tense, wheel to wheel action, than a technical processional showcase about who can spend the most money. If impressive tech has to be dropped in order to get some great action, then I'm all for it.


Unfortunatly absoultely everyone has an opinion, and right now it seems too many cooks are spoiling the broth. No ones quite sure what F1 wants to be.

I'd like to see zero downforce, give them big fat slicks, active suspension, CVT and anything else they want except downforce, and what I already said about engines and fuel.

EDIT: no TC or ABS though.

[Gaz]

All this unrestircted aero stuff sounds wonderfull, but in the real world. It's just a silly dream.

If aerodynamicists where let lose with aero, and engines were unrestricted, we'd have insane top speeds and cornering speeds. Your talking about drivers blacking out here. Cars that are impossible to drive. There's a reason things have to be restricted in F1. Ground effects weren't taken away for no good reason.

F1 and racing is suspose to be entertaining in my opinion. I'd rather watch tense, wheel to wheel action, than a technical processional showcase about who can spend the most money. If impressive tech has to be dropped in order to get some great action, then I'm all for it.


Unfortunatly absoultely everyone has an opinion, and right now it seems too many cooks are spoiling the broth. No ones quite sure what F1 wants to be.

I'd like to see zero downforce, give them big fat slicks, active suspension, CVT and anything else they want except downforce, and what I already said about engines and fuel.

EDIT: no TC or ABS though.

You'd get less overtaking with that.

[stonemonkey]

All this unrestircted aero stuff sounds wonderfull, but in the real world. It's just a silly dream.

If aerodynamicists where let lose with aero, and engines were unrestricted, we'd have insane top speeds and cornering speeds. Your talking about drivers blacking out here. Cars that are impossible to drive. There's a reason things have to be restricted in F1. Ground effects weren't taken away for no good reason.

F1 and racing is suspose to be entertaining in my opinion. I'd rather watch tense, wheel to wheel action, than a technical processional showcase about who can spend the most money. If impressive tech has to be dropped in order to get some great action, then I'm all for it.


Unfortunatly absoultely everyone has an opinion, and right now it seems too many cooks are spoiling the broth. No ones quite sure what F1 wants to be.

I'd like to see zero downforce, give them big fat slicks, active suspension, CVT and anything else they want except downforce, and what I already said about engines and fuel.

EDIT: no TC or ABS though.

You'd get less overtaking with that.

No aero problem with following other cars, and larger braking and acceleration zones.

[Gaz]

All this unrestircted aero stuff sounds wonderfull, but in the real world. It's just a silly dream.

If aerodynamicists where let lose with aero, and engines were unrestricted, we'd have insane top speeds and cornering speeds. Your talking about drivers blacking out here. Cars that are impossible to drive. There's a reason things have to be restricted in F1. Ground effects weren't taken away for no good reason.

F1 and racing is suspose to be entertaining in my opinion. I'd rather watch tense, wheel to wheel action, than a technical processional showcase about who can spend the most money. If impressive tech has to be dropped in order to get some great action, then I'm all for it.


Unfortunatly absoultely everyone has an opinion, and right now it seems too many cooks are spoiling the broth. No ones quite sure what F1 wants to be.

I'd like to see zero downforce, give them big fat slicks, active suspension, CVT and anything else they want except downforce, and what I already said about engines and fuel.

EDIT: no TC or ABS though.

You'd get less overtaking with that.

No aero problem with following other cars, larger braking and acceleration zones.

Yeh but a massive massive diffrence in grip once you go off-line.

So you'd go slightly off-line to overtake and you'd go backwards compared to whoever you were going to overtake.

[hesketh308]

F1 and racing is suspose to be entertaining in my opinion. I'd rather watch tense, wheel to wheel action, than a technical processional showcase about who can spend the most money. If impressive tech has to be dropped in order to get some great action, then I'm all for it.

Then you are watching the wrong series. You should be watching Indy Open Wheel or Nascar and the likes. F1 is about showcasing technology, and we're not about to sacrifice that to please you, when you already have all kinds of racing circuits and series to choose from. Leave F1 to us fans.

It seems that F1 means different things to different people.
To me it means seeing the best open-wheeled racers battle it out to see who is the best of them all, who has the balls to throw it round the outside etc
All this new technology doesn't interest me very much, im more interested in the meat and bones of racing, big V12 Ferrari engines, the old DFV's with Hewland gearbox combinations, that sort of thing. When the cars had actual steering wheels instead of playstation controllers.

I know it's all been done before and times change, but i still feel that it would be more fun watching 2 dozen racers battling it out armed with only a steering wheel, a gated shifter, clutch, brake and throttle pedals.

One thing is clear, and that is that something needs to be changed about the cars, as Schumi has said, it's almost impossible to overtake in these cars. Wether it is the aero, tyres, gearbox, it needs to be investigated and changed i feel.

Also Trypt, it seems that your post has used the collective 'we' when talking about F1 fans, when i feel that your opinion is not shared by the majority of posters here.

[darwin dali]

A severe decrease in fuel allowance year after year will take care of all your concerns. I'm talking SEVERE curtailing of fuel, like the first year 100 liters per race, the following year 75 liters, then 50 liters, 40, 30, 20, 10 and eventually no fossil fuel at all

What would that accomplish? A slower and slower F1 car every year. Great plan there bud. While I'm looking forward to an electric racing circuit, I don't see what F1 would have to do with that, F1 is about the top combustion engine technology.

That being said, it would be interesting to see the top companies compete in a F1 type circuit (big investment into research/development), but with their new electric solutions. There is no need to hijack F1 to make that happen.

You really believe this? That they would go slower and slower? Ha Just look at the recent history of the FIA trying to reduce aero - they have way more these days and the cars are faster. Same will hold true for a scenario I outlined above - I have full confidence that F1 engineers will come up with solutions that will be mind-boggling fast. And THAT in my mind is what F1 is all about: sheer engineering ingenuity trying to win the pot against the others.

[Focused]

I've been hoping for the return of turbos since 07'. As far as power to weight ratios go you can't do better and they just sound so much sweeter the n/a units. This is Bernie's best way of luring back the manufactures, 1.5L I-4 WOOSSSH FTW!!!

[7UpJordan]

I've been hoping for the return of turbos since 07'. As far as power to weight ratios go you can't do better and they just sound so much sweeter the n/a units. This is Bernie's best way of luring back the manufactures, 1.5L I-4 WOOSSSH FTW!!!

I for one can imagine BMW and/or Honda relishing that opportunity seeing how their turbo engines were the most powerful.

[texasmr2]

I've been hoping for the return of turbos since 07'. As far as power to weight ratios go you can't do better and they just sound so much sweeter the n/a units. This is Bernie's best way of luring back the manufactures, 1.5L I-4 WOOSSSH FTW!!!

I for one can imagine BMW and/or Honda relishing that opportunity seeing how their turbo engines were the most powerful.

All they would have to do is an archives search .