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[Stealthgate007]

yes it did affect McLaren as it ultimatly cost them their Mercedes partnership and some sponser money and creditability

Well then maybe they should not have cheated right?

Everybody cheated... Renault were in a similar situation and go a slap on the wrist. When you have people that go from team to team, you can't just say forget what you know about the last team you were with.

If someone hurt my credibility recklessly and purposefully, either because of a grudge, jealously, power or any other reason, and it didn't effect my current livelyhood, but did effect me being able to get a promotion, or to earn more money in the future and,

If the opportunity presented,.....


I would definately get even.


Not out of revenge, but out of righting a wrong..

Yet the fact still remains that McLaren cheated and admitted it, it is a cut and dry issue imho but then again we are just discussing our opinions right? You and others have yours and I have mine, no big deal really.

Agreed buddy No biggie

[Stealthgate007]

If McLaren take it to the courts and still get punished for spy-gate, then Renault would probably be punished too.

No more will there be a 2-faced judicial system; now the teams will all have an equal standing before the courts. (As 2-faced as they often are.)

Complete dismissal. No retrial for both. The process was corrupt under Mosely. No Double Jeapordy.. (here in the states anyway)..

Who's to say Mosely didn't manufacture evidence. Macca's confession under duress would not stand under our court system. It be thrown out.

Do the Job the right way all the time and the FIA would not have this problem.

[darwin dali]

Max should be dealt with in the worst ways allowed legally.

Hm, I could think of a few ways - just not sure they're allowed legally

[Focused]

That 100 million dollar fine was excessive and seemed like a personal vendetta against Ron Dennis. 'Mad Max' was drunk with power and probably felt untouchable or he just couldn't control his contempt for Ron any longer. I'm just saying that excluding McLaren from the WCC at the time they were leading was sufficient in my opinion. What the FIA under Max's reign did was unprecedented . I believe McLaren have a case to press because 100 million is a too much money to give away. Hell, that would have been two+ years operation under the proposed budget cap !!!

politics.

[antoniob]

That 100 million dollar fine was excessive and seemed like a personal vendetta against Ron Dennis. 'Mad Max' was drunk with power and probably felt untouchable or he just couldn't control his contempt for Ron any longer. I'm just saying that excluding McLaren from the WCC at the time they were leading was sufficient in my opinion. What the FIA under Max's reign did was unprecedented . I believe McLaren have a case to press because 100 million is a too much money to give away. Hell, that would have been two+ years operation under the proposed budget cap !!!

politics.

I dont know how you guys figure this issue could play itself out. I still maintain that spygate and then the other complication ( liegate) has severely affected their credibilty as far as bringing a absolute honest case on the table in court. they admitted guilt and ( we not in the us) there are many angles that can be used as approach to revisit. but thats only my opinion. they should leave it alone and move on and i dont see them persueing anyway ( again my opinion.)
chasing bad money with good money very seldom pays off.

[bud]

That 100 million dollar fine was excessive and seemed like a personal vendetta against Ron Dennis. 'Mad Max' was drunk with power and probably felt untouchable or he just couldn't control his contempt for Ron any longer. I'm just saying that excluding McLaren from the WCC at the time they were leading was sufficient in my opinion. What the FIA under Max's reign did was unprecedented . I believe McLaren have a case to press because 100 million is a too much money to give away. Hell, that would have been two+ years operation under the proposed budget cap !!!

politics.

I dont know how you guys figure this issue could play itself out. I still maintain that spygate and then the other complication ( liegate) has severely affected their credibilty as far as bringing a absolute honest case on the table in court. they admitted guilt and ( we not in the us) there are many angles that can be used as approach to revisit. but thats only my opinion. they should leave it alone and move on and i dont see them persueing anyway ( again my opinion.)
chasing bad money with good money very seldom pays off.

to clear ones name is a good enough reason to, The Renault case that followed just shortly after where similar punishment was not given. Other cases through out F1 history far worse where punishment not coming or not even coming close to what McLaren got dealt with. FIA has alot to answer for thats for sure!

I know youre a Ferrari fan and cannot fathom McLaren being unfairly treated so maybe we should just leave it at that.

[Jensonb]

Fact is, McLaren probably ought to get their hundred million back because the trial was unfair, and Renault got off without being fined. Problem is, the FiA has not got the money to pay them.

[antoniob]

That 100 million dollar fine was excessive and seemed like a personal vendetta against Ron Dennis. 'Mad Max' was drunk with power and probably felt untouchable or he just couldn't control his contempt for Ron any longer. I'm just saying that excluding McLaren from the WCC at the time they were leading was sufficient in my opinion. What the FIA under Max's reign did was unprecedented . I believe McLaren have a case to press because 100 million is a too much money to give away. Hell, that would have been two+ years operation under the proposed budget cap !!!

politics.

I dont know how you guys figure this issue could play itself out. I still maintain that spygate and then the other complication ( liegate) has severely affected their credibilty as far as bringing a absolute honest case on the table in court. they admitted guilt and ( we not in the us) there are many angles that can be used as approach to revisit. but thats only my opinion. they should leave it alone and move on and i dont see them persueing anyway ( again my opinion.)
chasing bad money with good money very seldom pays off.

to clear ones name is a good enough reason to, The Renault case that followed just shortly after where similar punishment was not given. Other cases through out F1 history far worse where punishment not coming or not even coming close to what McLaren got dealt with. FIA has alot to answer for thats for sure!

I know youre a Ferrari fan and cannot fathom McLaren being unfairly treated so maybe we should just leave it at that.

TBH Bud any fan of any club that support them to no end with the belief that they can do no wrong is clearly dilusional. It is wrong to assume my opinion is based only because I may be a ferrari fan and couldn't give two hoots about the sport as a whole. Do you not realise that spygate and liegate cost mclaren a lot more than the fine they recieved?? mclaren also lost support from other entities including fans that dont want to be associated with a team being guilty and admitting that they went to those lenghts in order to beat another rival. People are being sentenced to death for espionage in some countries.
Now with that in mind do you think for one moment that the "horror" of those attrocities needs to be reignited in many a mclaren fan?? even with the hope that it may clear their name?? I dont think so. They have admitted to wrongdoing and if I had to be involved in stuff like that I would really not want the wounds opened again at any cost. The FIA has paid the money over to some charity and do you not think that they will milk the situation for as long as they can in order to justify that the fine was a better option as opposed to banning them for maybe a full season?. it wont be good for them. it wont be good for the FIA. it wont be good for a sport that already is still reeling from so many issues far too many to mention. Let it go I say.

[Stealthgate007]

That 100 million dollar fine was excessive and seemed like a personal vendetta against Ron Dennis. 'Mad Max' was drunk with power and probably felt untouchable or he just couldn't control his contempt for Ron any longer. I'm just saying that excluding McLaren from the WCC at the time they were leading was sufficient in my opinion. What the FIA under Max's reign did was unprecedented . I believe McLaren have a case to press because 100 million is a too much money to give away. Hell, that would have been two+ years operation under the proposed budget cap !!!

politics.

I dont know how you guys figure this issue could play itself out. I still maintain that spygate and then the other complication ( liegate) has severely affected their credibilty as far as bringing a absolute honest case on the table in court. they admitted guilt and ( we not in the us) there are many angles that can be used as approach to revisit. but thats only my opinion. they should leave it alone and move on and i dont see them persueing anyway ( again my opinion.)
chasing bad money with good money very seldom pays off.

to clear ones name is a good enough reason to, The Renault case that followed just shortly after where similar punishment was not given. Other cases through out F1 history far worse where punishment not coming or not even coming close to what McLaren got dealt with. FIA has alot to answer for thats for sure!

I know youre a Ferrari fan and cannot fathom McLaren being unfairly treated so maybe we should just leave it at that.

TBH Bud any fan of any club that support them to no end with the belief that they can do no wrong is clearly dilusional. It is wrong to assume my opinion is based only because I may be a ferrari fan and couldn't give two hoots about the sport as a whole. Do you not realise that spygate and liegate cost mclaren a lot more than the fine they recieved?? mclaren also lost support from other entities including fans that dont want to be associated with a team being guilty and admitting that they went to those lenghts in order to beat another rival. People are being sentenced to death for espionage in some countries.
Now with that in mind do you think for one moment that the "horror" of those attrocities needs to be reignited in many a mclaren fan?? even with the hope that it may clear their name?? I dont think so. They have admitted to wrongdoing and if I had to be involved in stuff like that I would really not want the wounds opened again at any cost. The FIA has paid the money over to some charity and do you not think that they will milk the situation for as long as they can in order to justify that the fine was a better option as opposed to banning them for maybe a full season?. it wont be good for them. it wont be good for the FIA. it wont be good for a sport that already is still reeling from so many issues far too many to mention. Let it go I say.

You are reaching with that comment, but its your oppinion. McLaren admitted guilt under duress. Basically it would have cost them more under mosley if they would not have. Ron Dennis leaving was basically out of disgust for the FIA as he was in a no win situation. The FIA were out to get him.

I am not talking about going after the charity, or Killing People for espionage. Im talking recompence.

You are talking about just leave it alone. If I called you a DB and a liar and a cheat or a hooker chaser, antoniob, would you say its not worth defending your reputation?

[antoniob]

Ok its clear we getting nowhere here. so before somebody turns this into a mclaren/ferrari war I am bowing out. Stealthgate - mclaren admitted to being cheats, to being liars. the blame was carried by "other" people but the team still the responsible party. so fine maybe they should claim innocence and say we want our money back. "we said we were guilty because we were forced to say so". That action will only put them on another road to a crashsite with the FIA.(my opinion,so it dont matter) do we need more drama?

[Stealthgate007]

Alright, this is going nowhere. We agree to dissagree. However I believe you would protect your reputation at a point. And that would mean doing something proactive and not letting an issue lay.

If you read back in my post I didn't mention Ferrari so.... Not sure where you were going with that, or what they have to do with anything..

You think it will put them on a crashcourse with the FIA, I don't. I think Justice and Drama may go hand in hand. Our oppinons... different.. what can you say?

[texasmr2]

I would have no problem at all if McLaren got back atleast $50+ million because I agree with most that the fine was very very excessive.

[antoniob]

I would have no problem at all if McLaren got back atleast $50+ million because I agree with most that the fine was very very excessive.

Funny enough tex I agree with you. I disagree with the method many here say it should be used to accomplish it. At the time this story blew up in the media around the world the ruling body had to take a stand and say to the world that this conduct is not acceptable and I think there were calls to ban them for I dont know how long.(please correct me if I am wrong.) I was relieved when they were slapped with a fine. one so huge it would cripple many a team but they managed. somehow i think the fia knew they could afford it. not being a mclaren fan in no way meant that i would have prefered them kicked off the grid for a while. Other issues at hand may give mclaren a porthole to operate through and maybe get something back simply based on the FIA's unfairness on handing down penalties for (maybe) similar "crimes". they will not be able to clear their names as if spygate or the other one never happened.

Anyway, enough time spent on this topic.

[racechick]

That 100 million dollar fine was excessive and seemed like a personal vendetta against Ron Dennis. 'Mad Max' was drunk with power and probably felt untouchable or he just couldn't control his contempt for Ron any longer. I'm just saying that excluding McLaren from the WCC at the time they were leading was sufficient in my opinion. What the FIA under Max's reign did was unprecedented . I believe McLaren have a case to press because 100 million is a too much money to give away. Hell, that would have been two+ years operation under the proposed budget cap !!!

politics.

I dont know how you guys figure this issue could play itself out. I still maintain that spygate and then the other complication ( liegate) has severely affected their credibilty as far as bringing a absolute honest case on the table in court. they admitted guilt and ( we not in the us) there are many angles that can be used as approach to revisit. but thats only my opinion. they should leave it alone and move on and i dont see them persueing anyway ( again my opinion.)
chasing bad money with good money very seldom pays off.

As has been pointed out they admitted guilt under duress and threat. Guilt? They did no worse than all teams through the history of F1. Their real crime? Max had an issue with Ron. You cannot pick and choose who you decide to punish. And antoniob and Tex you cannot only select McLaren here when all teams do the smae thing-if you do you are no better than Mosely. Should a line be drawn under corruption? I hope so. Should the victims of it get some recompense? I hope so!

[Stealthgate007]

Should a line be drawn under corruption? I hope so. Should the victims of it get some recompense? I hope so!

I agree. Take the names away and look at the situation. It would be comparable to the Mob shaking down a grocery store that happened to do really well in the neighborhood.

Corruption is corruption..