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By ArtHowe
#18338
All dope tests are random and unannounced Dali. That's the point of dope tests, to test for the illegal use of dope. As Racechick points out, this scrutineer is there to specifically target McLaren. It is, therefore, nothing less than persecution and is purely a "one-off" affair rather than the conventional application of the rules of the sport.
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By darwin dali
#18354
I beg to differ about the randomness of doping tests - they are specifically targeted at the leading athletes (where it matters so to speak re. medals or ranking or $$$). A lowly Spyker type of athlete could only dream (or have nightmares for that matter) of being tested as frequently if at all.
McLaren are definitely in focus with two potential winners and they have a history with FA and LH and the relationships within the team, a very public history. So, are you surprised that it turns out the way it does?
By Ron Dennis
#18355
I didnt see an investigation into Schumacher/Barrichello when they were the dominant force.
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By darwin dali
#18360
Good point Ronnie - I didn't see any investigation into Ferdi Kübler or Eddy Merckx - things evolve...
By Ron Dennis
#18367
But in 2007 Ferrari are still playing the team order game, as they were in 2006 and 2005.

Its not past history, its current events.
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By darwin dali
#18374
No they didn't up until a couple of races ago when it became clear that FM wouldn't be able to clinch the title.
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By F1tastic
#18389
Of course.... the whole thing is a farce anyway. The FIA say that they couldn't refuse the request to oversee the team. It seems to me they could simply have said 'no' stating that it's an internal team matter what happens at Brazil.... the same as every other team on the grid.

The FIA are hell bent on kicking Ron in the nuts one last time this season.
By ArtHowe
#18392
I beg to differ about the randomness of doping tests - they are specifically targeted at the leading athletes (where it matters so to speak re. medals or ranking or $$$).


Well, after all Dali, it was you who complained about Lance Armstrong being subjected to "random and unannounced" dope tests. Now you are complaining that dope tests were targeted "where it matters".
I'm not being difficult Dali, I'm just a little confused by the contradictions in your argument.
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By darwin dali
#18394
I can help you with your confusion Artie. What I tried to say in my convoluted way is that it is not unusual for governing bodies to scrutinize leading athletes and I cited Lance Armstrong as an example. I didn't complain about him being singled out - it's only fair since there is a history of problems in the sport. So, I don't think there's much of a contradiction within my argument, but it surely goes against your statement that the FIA's scrutiny of McLaren is out of the ordinary, especially since it was in some ways announced or at least implied at the WMSC meeting that they would keep a close eye on McLaren in the future - one could argue that this (scrutineer) is just part of it and that it's something they brought onto themselves.
By ArtHowe
#18395
Good point Ronnie - I didn't see any investigation into Ferdi Kübler or Eddy Merckx - things evolve...


Merckx last won in 1974. Kubler last won in 1950. When were "random and unannounced" drug tests introduced Dali? I believe it was in the years following the "Race of Shame" in 1998.
By ArtHowe
#18399
I can help you with your confusion Artie. What I tried to say in my convoluted way is that it is not unusual for governing bodies to scrutinize leading athletes and I cited Lance Armstrong as an example. I didn't complain about him being singled out - it's only fair since there is a history of problems in the sport. So, I don't think there's much of a contradiction within my argument, but it surely goes against your statement that the FIA's scrutiny of McLaren is out of the ordinary, especially since it was in some ways announced or at least implied at the WMSC meeting that they would keep a close eye on McLaren in the future - one could argue that this (scrutineer) is just part of it and that it's something they brought onto themselves.


Well I'm afraid I still can't agree Dali. It quite plainly is "out of the ordinary" as it has never happened before. "Ordinary" would suggest that it is a commonplace. It isn't, it is an "extraordinary" measure. I'm also not sure that it is reasonable to suggest that this is simply an "implied" judgment that the meeting arrived at. Perhaps the $100,000,000 fine was also "implied", in which case McLaren can still claim the constructors' title as the points deduction was just implied, no doubt.

The scrutineer was appointed at the behest of a Spanish official who has nothing to do with the FIA. Mad Max, who didn't have the brain to think of it himself, obviously thought it was a wizard ruse that he could shove up Ron's nose and leapt on it like a fly on sh*t.

No disrespect intended to flies. I realise that not all flies have a propensity to leap on sh*t.
By Ron Dennis
#18403
No they didn't up until a couple of races ago when it became clear that FM wouldn't be able to clinch the title.


But they are NOW using outside sources to influence Kimi Raikkonen’s race position ergo breaking the rules. Which is something McLaren have a steward watching over them for.
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By darwin dali
#18408
Good point Ronnie - I didn't see any investigation into Ferdi Kübler or Eddy Merckx - things evolve...


Merckx last won in 1974. Kubler last won in 1950. When were "random and unannounced" drug tests introduced Dali? I believe it was in the years following the "Race of Shame" in 1998.


Yes, as I said, things evolve.
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By darwin dali
#18410
I can help you with your confusion Artie. What I tried to say in my convoluted way is that it is not unusual for governing bodies to scrutinize leading athletes and I cited Lance Armstrong as an example. I didn't complain about him being singled out - it's only fair since there is a history of problems in the sport. So, I don't think there's much of a contradiction within my argument, but it surely goes against your statement that the FIA's scrutiny of McLaren is out of the ordinary, especially since it was in some ways announced or at least implied at the WMSC meeting that they would keep a close eye on McLaren in the future - one could argue that this (scrutineer) is just part of it and that it's something they brought onto themselves.


Well I'm afraid I still can't agree Dali. It quite plainly is "out of the ordinary" as it has never happened before. "Ordinary" would suggest that it is a commonplace. It isn't, it is an "extraordinary" measure. I'm also not sure that it is reasonable to suggest that this is simply an "implied" judgment that the meeting arrived at. Perhaps the $100,000,000 fine was also "implied", in which case McLaren can still claim the constructors' title as the points deduction was just implied, no doubt.

The scrutineer was appointed at the behest of a Spanish official who has nothing to do with the FIA. Mad Max, who didn't have the brain to think of it himself, obviously thought it was a wizard ruse that he could shove up Ron's nose and leapt on it like a fly on sh*t.

No disrespect intended to flies. I realise that not all flies have a propensity to leap on sh*t.



It is out of the ordinary for F1, but your point was that no governing body would do something like this intrusive. I tried to counterargue this by using the very intrusive doping tests as an example to show that it is far from out of the ordinary in most sports. That's all I'm saying. I agree it is a novelty for F1 - I reserve judgment whether it's warranted or not. At least I can understand where they're coming from considering the recent history of McLaren and FA...
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By darwin dali
#18411
No they didn't up until a couple of races ago when it became clear that FM wouldn't be able to clinch the title.


But they are NOW using outside sources to influence Kimi Raikkonen’s race position ergo breaking the rules. Which is something McLaren have a steward watching over them for.



Not an outside source, but from within the team where only one of the drivers has a chance to win the title, so support for that one driver by his team mate is expected and has been legitimate ever since F1 started.

In McLaren's case however, there's a small but significant difference: both drivers can potentially win the title. All the FIA is (supposedly) trying to do is to ensure that both drivers get the same chance to win the title and that there won't be preferential treatment for one of them based on likes or dislikes, etc.

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