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Just as it says...
#171325
Oh good, an excuse for the world's massive evil corporations to continue polluting and slowly killing our planet.

Wait, that's not good at all.
#171329
the IPCC is comprised of many non-scientists who were appointed by national governments and organisations with the aim of manipulating the IPCC's agenda. This alone has caused me to be skeptical of figures published about global warming. I think reducing harmful emissions and other such policies can only be a good thing but I'm still not convinced about MMGW.
#171335
the IPCC is comprised of many non-scientists who were appointed by national governments and organisations with the aim of manipulating the IPCC's agenda. This alone has caused me to be skeptical of figures published about global warming. I think reducing harmful emissions and other such policies can only be a good thing but I'm still not convinced about MMGW.


I agree. I've never believed in MMGW - I do however feel that it's been a good bandwagon for our Government to jump on to help increase taxes in the name of climate change. And some have admitted that so-called 'green taxes' are nothing of the sort (for example Alistair Darling has admitted that the latest 'flight environmental taxes' are not actually for the environment at all - they are to help pay for the bank bailouts).

I should perhaps add that I do firmly believe we should all do our bit, but fudging data is not the way to convince people to become more environmentally friendly.
#171337
I think it is certainly possible that MMGW is in fact what is happening but I'm suspending my judgement because of the inconsistent and exploitative behaviour national governments have exhibited in tackling the issue. There are a few issues about policy direction that are particularly concerning;

Deforestation is far more damaging in terms of the net amount of CO2 that finds it's way into the atmosphere, than heavy industry. Agriculture or deforestation when considered in isolation each (on their own) result in a greater greenhouse effect per year than all the worlds sea, air and land vehicle traffic combined. Why aren't these two factors being prioritised?

It is also my view that the Western state exists in order to facilitate the optimal conditions for the domestic free market. As the companies, technologies and consumer patterns create by the sustaining of the free market by the state have resulted in the high levels of pollution and potential global warming effect, i don't see why the public should have to pay to undo the damage. Corporations, farms, logging companies, energy companies and polluters of any kind which have at some point forgone their responsibility to the greater environment in order to turn a profit should pick up the bill.

The bio diesel trend is also worrying as it seems to me to be a way for western multinationals to invest in poor countries under the guise of saving the planet. In reality, the loss of biodiversity and the deforestation caused by the planting of the bio fuel crops, actually leads to greater environmental damage.

The most concerning thing is the lack of any real mainstream dialogue on the issue. As with drugs legislation, the established approach and wisdom are defended by national government and press alike. Anyone who publicly doubts the MMGW theory is branded as an ally of oil companies or simply and idiot. I'm not decided myself as to what is happening but it is a worrying state of affairs when any kind of reasoned dialogue about an issue is actively discouraged.
#171526
I am biased I admit, I skimmed over this article and dismissed it as typical right-wing propaganda of the kind the Telegraph would print ... which is part of the problem. There are climate change sceptics (deniers) and climate change believers (warmists). I am in the latter group, to me the evidence in favour of AGW means that the argument is as good as over, the vast majority of scientists believe in AGW, the Arctic ice-cap IS melting, trees are coming into leaf earlier, winters are warmer and wetter ... etc etc etc. This, in some people's minds, makes me part of a global scam designed to hoodwink people into paying more taxes and driving their cars less (... boo!) I see deniers as apologists for the oil companies in whose interest AGW must be denied as polluting and carbon emissions is their life blood. Governments, it seems, take both sides ... while on one hand they say anthropogenic global warming is a reality and we must pay more taxes in order to reduce our emissions, on the other hand they also take huge wads of money from the oil companies. What I really don't understand is why almost ALL of the deniers come from English speaking countries, of course that could be because I only read English language forums, but I have yet to discover anyone else whose first language isn't English to deny the existence of AGW ... peculiar. Most Europeans (other than the British ... and like it or not, geographically we ARE European) believe in AGW it seems, mind you those very same Europeans are the ones that want to force us to speak French, drive on the right and eat square bananas ... or so the British (and right-wing) tabloids would have us believe (I jest of course ... but most of our tabloids ARE xenophobic). Not that The Telegraph is a tabloid but I bet an awful lot of its readers have shares in oil companies. If scientists produced a piece of evidence that they believed was an incontrovertible fact that proved anthropogenic global warming was happening, deniers would still refuse to believe in it. Therefore, I refuse to believe in this so called 'evidence' until we get cold winters (read a white Christmas) every year for the rest of my life!
#171728
If scientists produced a piece of evidence that they believed was an incontrovertible fact that proved anthropogenic global warming was happening, deniers would still refuse to believe in it. Therefore, I refuse to believe in this so called 'evidence' until we get cold winters (read a white Christmas) every year for the rest of my life!


Global warming would result in substantially colder winters for the UK due to the melting ice caps diluting the slat levels at the pint at which the Gulf stream returns to the Gulf of Mexico. The salt is needed for the Gulf Stream to operate it and so with the melting of the North pole ice cap, it is likely to stop altogether, causing a much colder climate in the UK.

Global warming is clearly happening but it's difficult to be sure why and the discouraging of any informed dialogue with regards to identifying the cause is a dangerous thing imo.
#171737
gilles...you sum up my thoughts exactly, far more eloquently than I ever could :)

zweiblumen, it's not just the Telegraph who've picked up on this - it is in a lot of the media, so I wouldn't call it propaganda per se. What little comment I've read on the issue so far is quite interesting and enlightening.

I believe climate change is happening. It's a question of whether it's man-made or not, and I'm not convinced. Yes, we probably contribute, but I personally don't believe that we are as much of a contributing factor as the mass media would have us believe.
#171771
I see it as a feeble attempt by AGW deniers to discredit the science and scientists involved before the Copenhagen talks (which even I admit will probably be a waste of time and end in no binding agreements), it's being portrayed as a propaganda coup for deniers but in actual fact there is little in the emails to suggest that anything sinister was going on. As I understand it (and I admit I may have got the wrong end of the stick), there may have been some disagreement among climatologists about how much an effect positive feedback is likely to have, but that is hardly a smoking gun that exposes the science as being false. The deniers have as usual put 2 and 2 together and come up with 5, they see conspiracies where there is none to be seen, they see scientists as falsifying evidence in order to continue receiving research grants ... well excuse me, but which side is it who gives out backhanders to politicians, spends untold amounts on lies, half-truths and propaganda? Could it be the right-wing, petro-chemical companies, neo-liberal think tanks? People who have a vested interest in maintaining the polluting status quo? Notice, my ire is directed towards deniers and not sceptics, deniers will continue to deny global warming is happening even when their house is submerged beneath the waves of the encroaching sea, sceptics just need a bit of convincing, :wink:
#171776
Unfortunately, I'm someone who doesn't believe in man-made global warming, and according to a recent independent survey, I'm of the majority.

I'm pleased to say that if you ignore the government line, polar bears are thriving, Antarctica is getting colder (with more ice), and global temperatures have actually declined so far this century. The problem is that the evidence supporting the claim of increased temperatures is based on very poor research, using few samples (not picked at random), which is never openly shared for peer review (funny that). The other evidence is based on Finnish lake sample data, used upside down (high temperatures are low, and vice versa), and unbelievably some of the most important data was supposedly eaten by a dog (lost)...

In addition, the majority of climate scientists DO NOT support the view that climate change, if any, is man-made. And the remainder, who do, feel that such bodies as the IPCC and governments over egg the issues associated with it - there are actually considerable upsides to warmer global temperatures. The scientists who strongly believe in MMGW do not accept any evidence to the contrary (however unequivocal) and often have their own agenda (grants being the main one - try getting a grant for research suggesting man is not to blame).

Anyway, this is just my opinion, and one I've come to from examining the very sparse evidence in favour of MMGW. In my mind, this is myth created to reduce our reliance on Eastern oil and gas, and an opportunity for further taxation. :)
#171778
As I understand it (and I admit I may have got the wrong end of the stick), there may have been some disagreement among climatologists about how much an effect positive feedback is likely to have, but that is hardly a smoking gun that exposes the science as being false. The deniers have as usual put 2 and 2 together and come up with 5, they see conspiracies where there is none to be seen, they see scientists as falsifying evidence in order to continue receiving research grants ...


Have you looked at any of the actual data yet? (that's meant as a genuine question: I'm not trying to have a go :) ) If not, I suggest go read some of it - or at least read some of the synopses on the web (and yes, I appreciate that some of these may be biased ;) ). Even if you ignore a lot of the commentary, the data itself and some of the comments within the files are interesting. It's not really about disagreement between climatologists - that's always going to happen in any field, scientific or otherwise - it's about building models on massively flawed data.
#171848
Unfortunately, I'm someone who doesn't believe in man-made global warming, and according to a recent independent survey, I'm of the majority.

I'm pleased to say that if you ignore the government line, polar bears are thriving, Antarctica is getting colder (with more ice), and global temperatures have actually declined so far this century. The problem is that the evidence supporting the claim of increased temperatures is based on very poor research, using few samples (not picked at random), which is never openly shared for peer review (funny that). The other evidence is based on Finnish lake sample data, used upside down (high temperatures are low, and vice versa), and unbelievably some of the most important data was supposedly eaten by a dog (lost)...

In addition, the majority of climate scientists DO NOT support the view that climate change, if any, is man-made. And the remainder, who do, feel that such bodies as the IPCC and governments over egg the issues associated with it - there are actually considerable upsides to warmer global temperatures. The scientists who strongly believe in MMGW do not accept any evidence to the contrary (however unequivocal) and often have their own agenda (grants being the main one - try getting a grant for research suggesting man is not to blame).

Anyway, this is just my opinion, and one I've come to from examining the very sparse evidence in favour of MMGW. In my mind, this is myth created to reduce our reliance on Eastern oil and gas, and an opportunity for further taxation. :)


I don't doubt that AGW sceptics/deniers are in the majority (but not in the scientific world), I would hazard a guess that there are more religious people in the world than atheists (like me :wink: ) but that doesn't prove the existence of god(s).

Polar bears are thriving? Where? Churchill perhaps? The arctic ice is melting faster than even climatologists initially predicted, Polar bears are largely solitary creatures but due to climate change and rapidly decreasing ice cover they are forced into new areas to obtain food, this brings them into contact with man more frequently which leads some people to assume that there are more polar bears than ever.

Antarctica getting colder? It may be true that the interior of Antarctica is receiving more precipitation (i.e. snow) than usual, Antarctica is the highest and coldest continent on the planet, any increased evaporation from the southern ocean is likely to lead to more snow over Antarctica ... well OK that's just my theory, I have a minor science qualification but I am not a scientist. The fact is that the ice shelves are disintegrating, temperatures on the Antarctic peninsula are rising at a frightening rate... this is backed up by changes in the wildlife. Penguins are natural barometers of the climate, certain penguins prefer certain habitats. Adelie penguins were once the most numerous species on the Antarctic peninsula, they relied on sea-ice for their winter habitat, in recent years the Adelies have begun to disappear, moving further south and Chinstrap and Gentoo penguins who prefer open water habitats have taken the Adelies place.

The upsides to warmer global temperatures depend on just how much temperature ends up rising to and whereabouts in the world you live, try convincing the people of Bangladesh and numerous Pacific islands who stand to lose their homes to rising sea levels (due to melting of continental ice caps and thermal expansion of the oceans) of the benefits of warmer global temperatures.

The argument that scientists are falsifying evidence in order to obtain research grants just doesn't hold true, if this meant that they were raking in millions of pounds of our money then maybe this might be believable. The fact is government scientists aren't that highly paid ... not compared to those working in the private sector ... surely if they were purely interested in financial benefits of research they would join the deniers and get paid a fortune by the petro-chemical industry?

Looking through some of the emails now, can't say I have changed my opinion on AGW, but I haven't read them all yet ...
#171935
MMGW doubters like to point out that the world hasn't been warming for 10 years. The world is billions of years old. 10 years is like a fraction of a percent of a millisecond.
#172101
Unfortunately, I'm someone who doesn't believe in man-made global warming, and according to a recent independent survey, I'm of the majority.

I'm pleased to say that if you ignore the government line, polar bears are thriving, Antarctica is getting colder (with more ice), and global temperatures have actually declined so far this century. The problem is that the evidence supporting the claim of increased temperatures is based on very poor research, using few samples (not picked at random), which is never openly shared for peer review (funny that). The other evidence is based on Finnish lake sample data, used upside down (high temperatures are low, and vice versa), and unbelievably some of the most important data was supposedly eaten by a dog (lost)...

In addition, the majority of climate scientists DO NOT support the view that climate change, if any, is man-made. And the remainder, who do, feel that such bodies as the IPCC and governments over egg the issues associated with it - there are actually considerable upsides to warmer global temperatures. The scientists who strongly believe in MMGW do not accept any evidence to the contrary (however unequivocal) and often have their own agenda (grants being the main one - try getting a grant for research suggesting man is not to blame).

Anyway, this is just my opinion, and one I've come to from examining the very sparse evidence in favour of MMGW. In my mind, this is myth created to reduce our reliance on Eastern oil and gas, and an opportunity for further taxation. :)


I don't doubt that AGW sceptics/deniers are in the majority (but not in the scientific world), I would hazard a guess that there are more religious people in the world than atheists (like me :wink: ) but that doesn't prove the existence of god(s).

Polar bears are thriving? Where? Churchill perhaps? The arctic ice is melting faster than even climatologists initially predicted, Polar bears are largely solitary creatures but due to climate change and rapidly decreasing ice cover they are forced into new areas to obtain food, this brings them into contact with man more frequently which leads some people to assume that there are more polar bears than ever.

Antarctica getting colder? It may be true that the interior of Antarctica is receiving more precipitation (i.e. snow) than usual, Antarctica is the highest and coldest continent on the planet, any increased evaporation from the southern ocean is likely to lead to more snow over Antarctica ... well OK that's just my theory, I have a minor science qualification but I am not a scientist. The fact is that the ice shelves are disintegrating, temperatures on the Antarctic peninsula are rising at a frightening rate... this is backed up by changes in the wildlife. Penguins are natural barometers of the climate, certain penguins prefer certain habitats. Adelie penguins were once the most numerous species on the Antarctic peninsula, they relied on sea-ice for their winter habitat, in recent years the Adelies have begun to disappear, moving further south and Chinstrap and Gentoo penguins who prefer open water habitats have taken the Adelies place.

The upsides to warmer global temperatures depend on just how much temperature ends up rising to and whereabouts in the world you live, try convincing the people of Bangladesh and numerous Pacific islands who stand to lose their homes to rising sea levels (due to melting of continental ice caps and thermal expansion of the oceans) of the benefits of warmer global temperatures.

The argument that scientists are falsifying evidence in order to obtain research grants just doesn't hold true, if this meant that they were raking in millions of pounds of our money then maybe this might be believable. The fact is government scientists aren't that highly paid ... not compared to those working in the private sector ... surely if they were purely interested in financial benefits of research they would join the deniers and get paid a fortune by the petro-chemical industry?

Looking through some of the emails now, can't say I have changed my opinion on AGW, but I haven't read them all yet ...


Whilst you prepare yourself to be proven wrong ( ;) ), have a look here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEiLgbBG ... _embedded#:rofl:
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