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[SingaporeSling]

h

It doesn't matter. What matters is that Renault's cheating of that raced completely changed everything thing for that race. For all I know Lewis Hamilton could of won had Renault not cheated. But you cannot go back in time and re-run that race. What you can do is just not count it. Unfortuantly it wasn't known that Renault cheated until almost a year later. But this doesn't mean you cannot act now and annull it from the points standing. You can if you really want to. Just like Juventus was stripped of 2 Scudetti 2 and 3 years after they were won for match fixing.

You're talking absolute rubbish and choosing a solution that would suit for your favourite. As long as Ferrari wins, you obviously would accept anything.

First of all this is international motorsports, not Italian football, and also to note that the Italian justice system is hardly an example to be followed anywhere in the fair world.

Your comparison with Juventus case has absolutely no logic at all, you seem to forgetting the facts, that only wrong doers where punished. When Juventus was penalised, did they cancel all the results of all the matches Juventus played against any team, or just kick Juventus off and penalised Juventus, the team doing something wrong by taking away their titles.

In a same logic, if Renault had won the championship they should have been penalised, but not Hamilton or Maclaren, who had absolutelly nothing to do with it.

[vaptin]

He's got a point about the punishment for renault.

I suppose the main issue is with "this affected the outcome of the championship", to say it affected the championship is one thing since it undoubtedly did, to say it affected the outcome sounds more like he is actually saying the result did lose him the championship.

"in any case, he was not sure he would be comfortable with the word “champion” next to his name on his CV."

Sounds like he isn't actually directly attacking hamilton being champ there, he's just blaming renault for screwing it up. Also he's not saying he's the worthy champion.

[Jamie]

It's true

Not to stir the pot. but he's got a point. (massa)

[AKR]

h

It doesn't matter. What matters is that Renault's cheating of that raced completely changed everything thing for that race. For all I know Lewis Hamilton could of won had Renault not cheated. But you cannot go back in time and re-run that race. What you can do is just not count it. Unfortuantly it wasn't known that Renault cheated until almost a year later. But this doesn't mean you cannot act now and annull it from the points standing. You can if you really want to. Just like Juventus was stripped of 2 Scudetti 2 and 3 years after they were won for match fixing.

You're talking absolute rubbish and choosing a solution that would suit for your favourite. As long as Ferrari wins, you obviously would accept anything.

First of all this is international motorsports, not Italian football, and also to note that the Italian justice system is hardly an example to be followed anywhere in the fair world.

Your comparison with Juventus case has absolutely no logic at all, you seem to forgetting the facts, that only wrong doers where punished. When Juventus was penalised, did they cancel all the results of all the matches Juventus played against any team, or just kick Juventus off and penalised Juventus, the team doing something wrong by taking away their titles.

In a same logic, if Renault had won the championship they should have been penalised, but not Hamilton or Maclaren, who had absolutelly nothing to do with it.

I talk no rubbish. If you read the start of this thread (I bet you didn't read it) you will see the Juventus part were actually Massa's words. Go back to the start and see for yourself. As for the Italian justice system who are you to talk????? I don't know where you are from but if you are from Singapore as your Avatar name may suggest, then they have a very bad legal system. Capital punishment exists there yes? And drug smugglers get it but rich people who do worse and have money walk away. Very corrupt without a doubt.

[AKR]

It doesn't matter. What matters is that Renault's cheating of that raced completely changed everything thing for that race. For all I know Lewis Hamilton could of won had Renault not cheated. But you cannot go back in time and re-run that race. What you can do is just not count it. Unfortuantly it wasn't known that Renault cheated until almost a year later. But this doesn't mean you cannot act now and annull it from the points standing. You can if you really want to. Just like Juventus was stripped of 2 Scudetti 2 and 3 years after they were won for match fixing.

The fact if they were to change a result now it would affect the championship, and to do so would be unfair.

Mclaren did not cheat during that race, Lewis won the WDC fair and square by scoring the most points.

Massa & Ferrari made mistakes during that race that they may of made anyway.

It is unfair that points should be counted for that race when Renault's cheating completely changed the outcome of the race. It would only be fair to annull it from the championship points for the 2008 season. The fact it would effect the championship would simply be badluck to those it causes to lose out and I guess a bonus for those it may cause gains for. In this situation there is nothing that can be done if it were to effect the results for 2008 had the race been annulled no matter how unfortunate it may be for some. I guess lucky for those who like the standings to remain, that I am not the head of the FIA. Because if I were, I would make super sure that Ferrari appealled this.

[bud]

AKR every race that happened afterwards was also altered due to this event. Its sad if you cant understand this.

[SingaporeSling]

h

It doesn't matter. What matters is that Renault's cheating of that raced completely changed everything thing for that race. For all I know Lewis Hamilton could of won had Renault not cheated. But you cannot go back in time and re-run that race. What you can do is just not count it. Unfortuantly it wasn't known that Renault cheated until almost a year later. But this doesn't mean you cannot act now and annull it from the points standing. You can if you really want to. Just like Juventus was stripped of 2 Scudetti 2 and 3 years after they were won for match fixing.

You're talking absolute rubbish and choosing a solution that would suit for your favourite. As long as Ferrari wins, you obviously would accept anything.

First of all this is international motorsports, not Italian football, and also to note that the Italian justice system is hardly an example to be followed anywhere in the fair world.

Your comparison with Juventus case has absolutely no logic at all, you seem to forgetting the facts, that only wrong doers where punished. When Juventus was penalised, did they cancel all the results of all the matches Juventus played against any team, or just kick Juventus off and penalised Juventus, the team doing something wrong by taking away their titles.

In a same logic, if Renault had won the championship they should have been penalised, but not Hamilton or Maclaren, who had absolutelly nothing to do with it.

I talk no rubbish. If you read the start of this thread (I bet you didn't read it) you will see the Juventus part were actually Massa's words. Go back to the start and see for yourself. As for the Italian justice system who are you to talk????? I don't know where you are from but if you are from Singapore as your Avatar name may suggest, then they have a very bad legal system. Capital punishment exists there yes? And drug smugglers get it but rich people who do worse and have money walk away. Very corrupt without a doubt.

For me it seems that you are talking a lot of rubbish, and your knowledge and understanding of justice is biased or totally blinded by your love for Ferrari.

If Massa makes a stupid comment because he is bitter about losing a fair fight with Lewis, and his comment has no logic, when he compares this case to Juventus. Why would you repeat that if you don’t think that was valid point? I think Massa was just whining and still think he is, his point doesn’t make sense and it would be unfair to Hamilton, who had nothing to do with the incident.

BTW it is totally irrelevant what the legal system of Singapore is, as I wasn’t proposing a Singaporean version of justice to F1. and I feel free to criticise any system in the world, but I think before doing so I need to get my facts right. I would recommend that to you too, as your knowledge on corruption in the World seems to be a very limited. Singapore actually is by all rankings published far less corrupted than Italy.
Corruption ranking from
http://www.worldaudit.org/corruption.htm
Singapore 4.
Italy 30.
Corruption Perceptions Index 2008 from
http://www.transparency.org/news_room/i ... 2008_table
Singapore 4.
Italy 55.

So as you can see Italy really doesn’t give much of an example in corruption fighting to any developed economy. Note also that Corruption and Democracy are not the same thing. Neither is having capital punishment as part of legal system related to whether country is corrupted or not. You’re just throwing in words after each other and hope that they make some kind of sense.

I’ll leave this threat and you are free to live in red Ferrari day dreams.

[Gilles 27]

i can't believe there is a corruption ranking!

[scotty]

I was sad to read Massa's comments on this subject, i thought he was classier than that. Perhaps he should be looking at Malaysia (where he span out from 2nd) as a more justifiable incident/reason which cost him the title.

[AKR]

For me it seems that you are talking a lot of rubbish, and your knowledge and understanding of justice is biased or totally blinded by your love for Ferrari.

If Massa makes a stupid comment because he is bitter about losing a fair fight with Lewis, and his comment has no logic, when he compares this case to Juventus. Why would you repeat that if you don’t think that was valid point? I think Massa was just whining and still think he is, his point doesn’t make sense and it would be unfair to Hamilton, who had nothing to do with the incident.

I repeat it because I was already thinking it (The Juve case) before Massa said it and I read the original post of this thread. I don't know maybe Massa and I think a like or maybe you are just full of it. The Juventus case is as valid as any. The difference is that other parties and clubs decided to persue the matter and Juventus paid for it. In this case Massa and Ferrari do not wish to persue the matter further. They also claim the World Motorsport body cannot do anything anyway. If they could what would stop Massa and/or Ferrari making an appeal? And if they did, regardless of the outcome, the point is valid as that race was fixed and because the way the fixing took place it completely altered the outcome of the race. Had this been known immedietly after the race, something would of been done about it and perhaps the race points annulled. And maybe then the results of the races after would of been different. The problem is that it was know almost a year later and the championship for 2008 decided by then. But the fact of race fixing remains and that this race would of otherwise been annulled had the cheating been discovered earlier. So in the end Massa and Ferrari have been the biggest victims of this inncident and in the end although the result will not change, there will always be doubt on who the true 2008 World Drivers Champion should of been.

BTW it is totally irrelevant what the legal system of Singapore is, as I wasn’t proposing a Singaporean version of justice to F1. and I feel free to criticise any system in the world, but I think before doing so I need to get my facts right. I would recommend that to you too, as your knowledge on corruption in the World seems to be a very limited. Singapore actually is by all rankings published far less corrupted than Italy.
Corruption ranking from
http://www.worldaudit.org/corruption.htm
Singapore 4.
Italy 30.
Corruption Perceptions Index 2008 from
http://www.transparency.org/news_room/i ... 2008_table
Singapore 4.
Italy 55.

So as you can see Italy really doesn’t give much of an example in corruption fighting to any developed economy. Note also that Corruption and Democracy are not the same thing. Neither is having capital punishment as part of legal system related to whether country is corrupted or not. You’re just throwing in words after each other and hope that they make some kind of sense.

Stats, nothing more and nothing less. A lot of it total nonsense. Very much like UEFA coefficients in football. Doesn't mean much when your club is number one in this and doesn't actually win the major trophies. Same crap here. Italy is more corrupt and death penalties don't count according to you or your links. But go tell that to the guy on death row who is about to be executed for drug smuggling and see how he feels when someone else who has committed a bigger crime gets sway with it because he/she has lots of money and the best lawyers. This sure exists in Italy (Minus the death penalty of course) but it sure exists all over the world just like in Singapore. So I don't know what you want to prove but I suggest you don't bag my country because if you do I'll throw everything at you Capisci? And btw just to difuse this a little I have been to Singapore and I must say it is a beautiful country. Although the policemen with submachine guns walking around the city did put me off. Why the hell do you need to arm them with such weapons. It isn't like Singapore is full of terrorists or anything?


I’ll leave this threat and you are free to live in red Ferrari day dreams.[/quote]

[bud]

there will always be doubt on who the true 2008 World Drivers Champion should of been.

AKR LEWIS HAMILTON 2008 FIA DRIVERS WORLD CHAMPION
its written on the trophy and theres no doubting that!

[AKR]

there will always be doubt on who the true 2008 World Drivers Champion should of been.

AKR LEWIS HAMILTON 2008 FIA DRIVERS WORLD CHAMPION
its written on the trophy and theres no doubting that!

Who cares.

All the F1 world realy cares about is what was won by a worthy team that year.

FERRARI 2008 CONSTRUCTORS CHAMPIONS.

And that too has been written on the trophy.

[bud]

youre such a loser! the F1 world only cares about the constructor?? then why are you so bent about who won the drivers title?? ahhh AKR bye bye

[AKR]

youre such a loser! the F1 world only cares about the constructor?? then why are you so bent about who won the drivers title?? ahhh AKR bye bye

Because I am greedy as well. You know if there were a chance that Massa could take that title off Hamilton through the courts I would accept it. Why not. A win is a win in the end.

[bud]

youre such a loser! the F1 world only cares about the constructor?? then why are you so bent about who won the drivers title?? ahhh AKR bye bye

Because I am greedy as well. You know if there were a chance that Massa could take that title off Hamilton through the courts I would accept it. Why not. A win is a win in the end.

hey Lewis and McLaren had to pit because of the SC same pressure as Ferrari and Massa, they are the ones that duck up. deal with it.

I do believe in Karma and Massa was not the race winner at SPA it all evened out as far as im concerned.