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[cap-dude]

^^Then why did you slate Ron for poor leadership

[darwin dali]

He can be honest and still a poor leader.

[McLaren Fan]

I think Button should get the seat and lets see what he's really capable of!!

And anyone who says he's not up to the challenge is a fool

No, anybody who says he is a fool. British people spend too much time bumming up their sportsmen, women and teams. Sure, Ten Henman was going to wipe the floor with everybody.

Button is a steady driver, who could do a solid job, however, I don't see him as the next big thing. Look at people such as Rosberg, Sutil et al. They have out-driven their cars, the marks of true racers. Button has not.

[racechick]

He was punished for his honesty and integrity. What a shower of incompetant biased idiots run this wonderful sport.


A very sophisticated assessment of what was really going on after you read the transcript?
First of all, who was punished? RD?
Also, I don't recall RD being called a cheat a lot on this forum - or it would have caused an uproar from you McLaren defenders beyond belief. There may have been an occasional post (can you show me some?) from some fringe members who are not taken seriously by most anyway. But to make it sound as if this was a continuing theme on this forum is just false. Most of the cheater accusations here have centered around FA, PdLR, Coughlan, Stepney and the McLaren team as a whole.

First of all thank you for recognising my sophisticated assessment of what was going on. (actually sophistication is not required here, we are talking Max Mosely)

You say the accusations have centered round C,S, FA . PdLR and McLaren as a whole. Woah! quite a big jump there from four named people to an organisation employing thousands. And if you include McLaren in your cheating allogations then you include Ron Dennis because he is McLaren, its his team run his way.

[darwin dali]

I've always made a clear distinction between McLaren as an entity and RD as a person - you can check my posts for that. There are elements at McLaren that are corrupt and/or dishonest and/or lacking a high degree of integrity (which includes actions to dismiss or even hide things that happened or not being forthcoming during the whole affair but only when their hand was forced - and yes, in that last category I'm inclined to include RD, but I can't prove it so I hold judgment).

Four named people? I only see three McLaren people named in my post. And I agree (for the sake of the argument) that it would be a leap to the whole team. However, this can be helped easily: after reading the transcript I would include in the above elements the following people as well: Jonathan Neale, Chris Lewis, Martin Whitmarsh and Paddy Lowe. Most of these people are not insignificant members of the team I hope you agree, so their behavior is a significant reflection on the entire team.

Cheating ALLEGATION? I think we are beyond that now are we not? They were found guilty of improper conduct that violated the sporting code and prejudiced the championship outcome.

And yes, I would include RD in my assessment of guilt in so far that he was ultimately responsible for the total breakdown of intra-team communications, hence my calls for him to resign as he clearly failed in his supervisory duties as the team boss. Do I call RD a cheat by that? No. Do I think he's dishonest? No. Do I think his reputation for personal integrity has suffered? Maybe.

[racechick]

I said you named four people, not four McLaren people. I am well aware that Stepney does not work for McLaren. My point was you took four people invovled in this and assumed guit of a whole organisation, Oh I realise you could not possibly have carried your logic thtough and implicated in the same way Ferrari. They are always above reproach
The fact is McLaren were found guilty by a corrupt organisation against which they have no redress.
Of course Ron Dennis' honesty and integrity have been questioned!

[darwin dali]

My point was you took four people invovled in this and assumed guit of a whole organisation,

I did no such thing - I merely pointed out that the cheating accusations centered around those four people and McLaren as a whole (as opposed to RD). It was YOU who inferred a jump from 4 people to guilt of an entire organization. Read posts more carefully and/or formulate your responses more factually before you accuse other people of things.

[racechick]

You cant try to wriggle out of what you said. No way have I ever said McLaren are guilty come on now! And talking of reading properly you've misquoted me twice. "those four people and McLaren" your words not mine. Anyway I'm glad to see you're coming round to the point of view that Ron Dennis is not involved in this cheating. Progress.

realisation----that must fit somewhere on that chart you keep quoting

[darwin dali]

You cant try to wriggle out of what you said. No way have I ever said McLaren are guilty come on now! And talking of reading properly you've misquoted me twice. "those four people and McLaren" your words not mine. Anyway I'm glad to see you're coming round to the point of view that Ron Dennis is not involved in this cheating. Progress.

realisation----that must fit somewhere on that chart you keep quoting

Are you dense or what? I did NOT say that you said McLaren is guilty. I said it was YOU who made an inference, a connection between naming 4 people and jumping to guilt for an entire organization - to make it absolutely clear: YOU said that I assumed guilt for an entire organization based on four people (which made no sense there, because only three worked for McLaren, which I pointed out with my question about 4 people). I did NOT, I repeat, I did NOT do such a thing. I merely pointed out that accusations about cheating centered around 'THOSE FOUR PEOPLE and MCLAREN AS A WHOLE (as OPPOSED to RD) - you conveniently misquoted me there by dropping the 'as a whole as opposed to RD' part, without which of course you could interpret my statement wrongly as saying those four people and McLaren means those four people represent McLaren or constitute a direct link with guilt.
Again, another example of very sloppy reading on your part, conveniently and selectively leaving out things and then coming to completely unfounded conclusions.

And then this rather inappropriate statement: "Anyway I'm glad to see you're coming round to the point of view that Ron Dennis is not involved in this cheating. Progress."
Show me ONE single post of mine where I claim that RD was involved in the cheating. Again, sloppy reading of my posts and then concluding wrong things.

I'm sorry, until you start doing your homework, i.e., read and understand other people's posts and thus be able to carry a factual conversation on this forum, I can't take you seriously anymore.

[McLaren Fan]

I haven't read this entire thread, however, I remember DD calling McLaren 'McCheaters'. To me at least that suggests the whole team is one great, big band of cheaters.

[8-ball]

unless FA can go to a team that is capable of giving him a winning car then he is staying put. RD will probably let him stay as well as it would take alot of money to buy him out of his contract.

[McLaren Fan]

unless FA can go to a team that is capable of giving him a winning car then he is staying put. RD will probably let him stay as well as it would take alot of money to buy him out of his contract.

Dennis can quite easily separate his personal relationships and business. In 1994, after Senna left for Williams, Dennis asked Prost to rejoin the team. Alonso may be a w***er, however, if he is still doing a good job, albeit for himself and not the team, Dennis will let him stay.

[aboldero]

RD wants to win. and unfortunately FA is a good driver.. and he is a two times world champion (even if it is through reliability rather than outright ability)

and LH and FA is a good pairing, but i believe LH has mre natural ability..

However RD does have to think about morale in the team, and i don't know if the team is going to be happy sticking with a driver who won't think twice about screwing them over for his own benefit, which is exactly what FA has done..

If i was a team member, i'm damned sure i'd want FA out.. there are plenty of drivers with his ability who'd love the seat and work for the benefit of the team... RK, AS, HK for starters, and if he wants experience, JB or NH

[f1ea]

Wow! after reading the WMSC docs, there is no way Alonso will be in Mclaren next year. Not just because whatever whoever may say, but most importantly because there wil never be winning chemistry. And maybe there never was. Alonso only moved to Mclaren for personal ambitions (i.e. the obvious best car and $alary), rather than for where he felt confortable. That was a big mistake for Alonso and if it costs him this year's championship (losing to Lewis) then I guess he deserves it. I think Alonso is the best driver right now... but unless he is totally confortable with the team, the little things that happen that make you not be consistent will always be there.

Next year's lineup for Mclaren is a tough one, as Lewis has got quite a big head now, so obviously anyone who comes in will have to accept #2 status...

Maybe someone with a more 'compatible' temperament to the Brits and their team, and who wishes to be on the most competitive car: Heidfeld, Webber, Rosberg or Button?? (but then again, will either of them want to be #2 to Lewis?)... Maybe a #2-by-default guy like Fisichella or Barrichelo? haha

[darwin dali]

McLaren the obvious best car? He didn't know that when he signed. He did know about the obvious best salary though...

...will have to accept #2 status...
Where does this come from? Do you think this will really happen considering RD's tradition (if he's still in it that is) and considering that the FIA will keep a close eye on everything McLaren?