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[Irv the Swerve]

Not in the US it's not. It's SPELLED rumors

Still haven't got my sarcastic humour yet DD??

[darwin dali]

I have my dear, I have.

[tmeury]

[quote]Its pronounced RUMOURS. :wink: :P[/quote]
Now that's a Fleetwood Mac album ;)

Anywho, rumor or not...what's the general consensus around here?
Fact or Crap? Opinions why or why not?

[McLaren Fan]

I would love to know how Ron Dennis can be a cheater when it was he who phoned the FIA to report the evidence on which McLaren were convicted. Once again, DD's bitter, anti-Ron Dennis views are clouding the facts.

[darwin dali]

See this is exactly what's wrong with you blind McLaren defenders: your perception of reality is totally warped. Show me where I have EVER said that RD is a cheater?

[darwin dali]

I would love to know how Ron Dennis can be a cheater when it was he who phoned the FIA to report the evidence on which McLaren were convicted. Once again, DD's bitter, anti-Ron Dennis views are clouding the facts.

Also:
'But as reported earlier, a rumour has been swirling all day in the Spa paddock that Dennis actually pre-empted the disgruntled Alonso, who was at the time threatening to take the offending emails to the FIA.'
So, his reporting is not washing his vest any whiter. I don't think he cheated (but who knows? anything could come out down the road - nothing surprises me anymore...), but he fostered the climate or didn't take measures to prevent such a climate to be generated among his team that was conducive to cheating and unethical behavior.

[Cillit Bang]

Through all of this I have nothing but sympathy for Lewis Hamilton. By the looks of things he has done absolutely nothing wrong. It appears as if he has been excluded from this conversation between FA and PDLR. Whether his has anything to do with FA seeing LH as a threat i don't know.

The next thing we hear, Lewis, being the true gentleman, stands up for his team, whereas Alonso deserts the team, focusing instead on his own ambition of winning the driver's championship, when he was the man who has helped get them into this trouble in the first place.

Personally, if I was RD, I'd sit back and make him help Lewis to the title. The man's attitude stinks.

[McLaren Fan]

I would love to know how Ron Dennis can be a cheater when it was he who phoned the FIA to report the evidence on which McLaren were convicted. Once again, DD's bitter, anti-Ron Dennis views are clouding the facts.

Also:
'But as reported earlier, a rumour has been swirling all day in the Spa paddock that Dennis actually pre-empted the disgruntled Alonso, who was at the time threatening to take the offending emails to the FIA.'
So, his reporting is not washing his vest any whiter. I don't think he cheated (but who knows? anything could come out down the road - nothing surprises me anymore...), but he fostered the climate or didn't take measures to prevent such a climate to be generated among his team that was conducive to cheating and unethical behavior.

Utter nonsense.

[darwin dali]

Actually no. SPEED TV's Peter Windsor reported the same thing. And also that FA demanded quite some outrageous things from RD such as clear no. 1 status and that LH be gone before the end of this season.

[Fact Man]

The question now is, if ML should get punished for the actions of some of its employees, than how come Ferrari gets away with the actions of 1 of its employees. Shouldn't be a punishment for ferrari too?

[Phil.T.Ho]

I'm wondering where all of the $100m will be going. The WMSC/FIA's pockets? Ferrari?

Anyway, to those having a go at McLaren fans for defending the team, would it not be the same if it were the other way around? Surely Ferrari fans would defend JT and co, if they were found guilty of the same thing...

Some of the $100m will be offset by TV money lost due to lack of constructors points.

If I was a team supporter as opposed to a driver supporter, I'd be disappointed in McLaren's conduct to the point that I'd change allegiance. Same would apply to any other team.

...well, thats exactly how i feel now this has all come to light....if Fernando is in a Ferrari next year, consider me a ferrari fan McLaren was always the team i followed, but wRONgs "equal status " bullsh!t for a 2 time world champ schuey beater, and his "groomed protege/creation", has led me to the conclusion that wrONg is a useless phuqer when it comes to man-management skills. You would think he would have learned by now after the total balls up he made with Ayrton and Alain!!!!...but no, he phux up yet again, when he coulda had it sooo easy this season!!! he poached Fernando from Renault purely so that he could measure Lewboy against Fernando, and forgot a very important lesson in life; When you try to play 2 people against each other, sooner or later the sh!t will hit the fan and you end up covered in it

[darwin dali]

The question now is, if ML should get punished for the actions of some of its employees, than how come Ferrari gets away with the actions of 1 of its employees. Shouldn't be a punishment for ferrari too?

Had it been just Coughlan as the rogue employee, McCheaters would have escaped punishment as you can see below.
Stepney as a rogue employee only damaged Ferrari, not a third party - Ferrari is going after him via the courts. Coughlan actively damaged a third party (Ferrari) with his actions merely by the fact that he accepted illegal information and did not report it to the appropriate authorities (starting with his boss RD) nor did anybody else in the McLaren team who knew - a sign of corruption which was enough to find McLaren gulty of breaching the sporting code. It would have been left at that (McLaren vs. one rogue employee), however, more evidence surfaced that many more people at McLaren were involved and/or in the know. Cheating and corruption to the core, though apparently not all the way up to the very top management. Hence the severe punishment.

Again as posted elsewhere: the way Pepsi and Coke handled last year's industrial espionage scandal would have been the way for McLaren to deal with Coughlan (and consequently Stepney once Coughlan had outed him). Since they didn't, Ferrari had no other choice than to get the FIA involved once (way too late) bits and pieces came to light and substantial damage to their team had been done already.

Excerpts of the FIA decision:

8.3 In the 26 July Decision, the WMSC found a breach of Article 151(c). In assessing the gravity of that breach, it took account of a number of factors including any evidence (or, at the time, lack of it) to suggest that the Ferrari information improperly held had actually been used and actually conferred a sporting advantage. Other factors that it took into account included the argument that there was little evidence of the information in question being disseminated to others at McLaren, what the WMSC then understood to be Coughlan's more limited role and the argument that Coughlan was a single rogue employee.


8.8 In light of the evidence now before it, the WMSC does not accept that the only actions of McLaren deserving censure were those of Coughlan. While this situation might have originated with the actions of a single rogue McLaren employee acting on his own and without McLaren's knowledge or consent, evidence is now available which, when taken in its full context, makes clear that:

# Coughlan had more information than previously appreciated and was receiving information in a systematic manner over a period of months

# the information has been disseminated, at least to some degree (e.g. to Mr. de la Rosa and Mr. Alonso), within the McLaren team

# the information being disseminated within the McLaren team included not only highly sensitive technical information but also secret information regarding Ferrari's sporting strategy

# Mr de la Rosa, in the performance of his functions at McLaren, requested and received secret Ferrari information from a source which he knew to be illegitimate and expressly stated that the purpose of his request was to run tests in the simulator

# the secret information in question was shared with Mr. Alonso

# there was a clear intention on the part of a number of McLaren personnel to use some of the Ferrari confidential information in its own testing. If this was not in fact carried into effect it was only because there were technical reasons not to do so

# Coughlan's role within McLaren (as now understood by the WMSC) put him in a position in which his knowledge of the secret Ferrari information would have influenced him in the performance of his duties.

[darwin dali]

whereas Alonso deserts the team, focusing instead on his own ambition of winning the driver's championship, when he was the man who has helped get them into this trouble in the first place.

Personally, if I was RD, I'd sit back and make him help Lewis to the title. The man's attitude stinks.

It's actually commendable that McLaren let FA continue to drive in their car after all this - they did the same for AP and let him win the title from AS in the end.
If they tried to do anything to favor LH for the remaining races, you can bet that the FIA would be informed by FA or somebody and McLaren would be in even deeper doodoo.

[McLaren Fan]

...well, thats exactly how i feel now this has all come to light....if Fernando is in a Ferrari next year, consider me a ferrari fan McLaren was always the team i followed, but wRONgs "equal status " bullsh!t for a 2 time world champ schuey beater, and his "groomed protege/creation", has led me to the conclusion that wrONg is a useless phuqer when it comes to man-management skills. You would think he would have learned by now after the total balls up he made with Ayrton and Alain!!!!...but no, he phux up yet again, when he coulda had it sooo easy this season!!! he poached Fernando from Renault purely so that he could measure Lewboy against Fernando, and forgot a very important lesson in life; When you try to play 2 people against each other, sooner or later the sh!t will hit the fan and you end up covered in it

Alonso came to McLaren on his accord and, according to Dennis, the advantage of having two great drivers far outweighs the disadvantages. When McLaren had Prost and Lauda and, later, Senna ans Prost, the team did very well in all aspects. The fact is you are getting the spy scandal and the rivalry between Hamilton and Alonso mixed up. They are two separate issues that would have happened regardless of the other, the only difference is Alonso thought he could try to blackmail Dennis saying as the spy scandal was already under way. Alonso is only bitter because he has put in the shade this season by his rookie teammate. If Alonso was the better driver, not a word would be said about equality etc.

Finally, perhaps DD would like to comment on the many ways in which Ferrari generated a feeling in the team which produced unethical behaviour?Have Ferrari not been unethical in the past by using devious methods to assist them in aquiring titles? Have they not ever caused shame to sport and fallen out with drivers? Was it not that Stepney was so unhappy at the Ferrari, saying as they mucked about with his career, that the whole scandal kicked off? The fact is DD, for you, it's one rule for Ferrari and another for McLaren. Your bitterness will get the better of you one day, which is a shame really, for you seem to pretty intelligent. It's a pity your intellect isn't strong enough to keep your bitterness at bay.

[darwin dali]

Alonso came to McLaren on his accord and, according to Dennis, the advantage of having two great drivers far outweighs the disadvantages. When McLaren had Prost and Lauda and, later, Senna ans Prost, the team did very well in all aspects. The fact is you are getting the spy scandal and the rivalry between Hamilton and Alonso mixed up. They are two separate issues that would have happened regardless of the other, the only difference is Alonso thought he could try to blackmail Dennis saying as the spy scandal was already under way. Alonso is only bitter because he has put in the shade this season by his rookie teammate. If Alonso was the better driver, not a word would be said about equality etc.

Finally, perhaps DD would like to comment on the many ways in which Ferrari generated a feeling in the team which produced unethical behaviour?Have Ferrari not been unethical in the past by using devious methods to assist them in aquiring titles? Have they not ever caused shame to sport and fallen out with drivers? Was it not that Stepney was so unhappy at the Ferrari, saying as they mucked about with his career, that the whole scandal kicked off? The fact is DD, for you, it's one rule for Ferrari and another for McLaren. Your bitterness will get the better of you one day, which is a shame really, for you seem to pretty intelligent. It's a pity your intellect isn't strong enough to keep your bitterness at bay.

FA is a lowlife - I've lost any trace of respect I may have still had for him before the spy scandal.

And no, I don't want to comment on past transgressions by Ferrari or any other team for that matter. They are insignificant compared to this affair, they are mostly attempts to exploit loopholes in the regs which every team is trying to do and in effect every team is 'expected' to try - that's where a lot of innovational engineering happens.
I'm not bitter at all, just disappointed. If it had to happen at all, it was a good thing that it happened at McLaren - the elitist Ãœber-team led by a nazi-style boss who have always claimed (openly or implied) that they don't do 'that kind of dirty things.' Well guess what? They are the dirtiest of them all and got the bill presented for their unethical conduct.