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User avatar
By pit_babe
#13706
The biggest fine EVER - McLaren are the biggest cheats EVER! :shock::twisted:8)

Erm nope. That would got to Ferrari :)

Ferrari have a habit of either breaking or pushing the regulations beyond the limit, yet when were they ever penalised? Its comman knowledge that most of the FIA Council is made up of a majority of Ferrari men. This being the case, how can any hearing where Ferrari are involved be un biased.The FIA Council should not contain anyone with any links to any team. Only this way can a fair and un biased conclusion be had. MM has never made a secret of the fact that he supports Ferrari. Now that Bernie and Flavio are buisness partners, expect a few favours from the FIA going Renaults way as well. Th FIA is corrupt, and while this situation exists, F1 will continue to suffer. The whole infrastructure needs overhauling,it has got so big its out of control. Max and his buddies should be kicked out and the whole thing re constructed
User avatar
By darwin dali
#13707
Likewise with regard to cheating McLaren - people (including sponsors) will turn away from them. And if one of the McLaren boys wins the title, it'll be tainted because a commercially motivated decision allowed them to race in a car that benefited from the same information that was the reason for which the team as a whole got punished severely.
User avatar
By pit_babe
#13708
Likewise with regard to cheating McLaren - people (including sponsors) will turn away from them. And if one of the McLaren boys wins the title, it'll be tainted because a commercially motivated decision allowed them to race in a car that benefited from the same information that was the reason for which the team as a whole got punished severely.

Neither Kimmi or masa will be able to claim an untainted victory either. The same goes for ferrari's constructors championship. Not won by merit but by default
User avatar
By darwin dali
#13711
That's twisted - McLaren cheat and thereby get more points, get caught and stripped of the points and you claim that Ferrari's win of the constructors championship is tainted? Yes, tainted by McLaren. Despite being at a disadvantage, Ferrari was able to fight for the title - chapeau!
By pb
#13712
Likewise with regard to cheating McLaren - people (including sponsors) will turn away from them. And if one of the McLaren boys wins the title, it'll be tainted because a commercially motivated decision allowed them to race in a car that benefited from the same information that was the reason for which the team as a whole got punished severely.


You might want to hold off the car remarks until tomorrow, it seems as if the FIA's decision may not be due to the car having any modifications from first reports, but from someone at McLaren not using the right methods to send the information from Ferrari straight to the authorities and get rid of the culprit straight away.

The information that was allegedly recieved was not enough to re-design the car in any way, one part was illegal and McLaren had already tested with the car before March.
User avatar
By pit_babe
#13713
That's twisted - McLaren cheat and thereby get more points, get caught and stripped of the points and you claim that Ferrari's win of the constructors championship is tainted? Yes, tainted by McLaren. Despite being at a disadvantage, Ferrari was able to fight for the title - chapeau!
as well as they did last year,?? the court action was their only hope of winning anything
User avatar
By Fact Man
#13714
This is what i have to say about this whole thing.
Today's decision proves that's politically motivated. Why punish ML but not the drivers. It doesn't make sense, if they all succeded because they cheated then punish all of them. Suddenly ferrari is satisfied with the ruling. So F never cared about its drivers, they only wanted the constructor's title. If F really cared about justice and they were confident that ML used their data then they should appeal and ask for the drivers to be thrown out as well. But they didn't, why?
So far, we have not heard or seen any evidence of ML using F technology. It's been all about allegations. Of course, you can't disclose specific details about F technology, but you can tell the world how did ML use them and how they benefited from but the FIA did not show us anything (lower the floor and stuff like that is hardly considered technologically advanced). I'm talking about engineering stuff (engine, chassis) that really gives ML the edge. Also, if the FIA/F are so sure than why didn't they investigate ML cars. When you accuse someone of a crime, first thing you do is to investigate them and look for evidence, not emails and phone calls...The FIA had 3 months since this case became public to check the ML cars but they didn't! Why wait till 08, why didn't they check the cars before every race since this thing started or during the summer break. They had plenty of time to look for hard evidence and prove once for all that ML is guilty. But they chose to look for emails and phone records. Take those cars apart and look everywhere for evidence or otherwise shut up.
So the whole case revolves around whether or not other people in ML new about the dossier. If that is true, than ML should be punished. But $100 mill and removing all points is not a fair punishment. Because of the action of 1 man at ML the whole team has to pay for it. Well, how about Ferrari? Why isn't it the same thing with them. Imagine 1 employee at Microsoft shares sensitive material about Windows with their rival. I guess more than 1 head will roll. But for whatever reason it's not the case with F. Stepney stands to be the only one. If I were Montezemolo, I would fire anyone who was above him.
Another thing I would like to add is that what guarantees ML that when FIA check their 08 car no info will be leaked to F. It is well established that FIA is biased towards F. So how do they guarantee that no new technology from their car will pass illegally to F. This sets a new precedent in terms of FIA involvement in F1 car development. So if this a team is not doing well, but by next year they are in better shape, the FIA should check their car. It's going to be a nightmare if they apply the same logic to everyone else from now on. Also, if ML did use F technology to win this year (I don't believe they did), this proves that the heads at ML are a lot smarter than at F. If I were Luca, I'll fire every last person at F and bring the guys from ML.
Again, it's not an argument of who's right or wrong. It's about hard evidence that ML used F technology to their benefit. So far all we have is that ML had knowledge of F info, but nothing about whether or not they used in 07. Yes ML should get punished for knowing about it and not doing anything. Up untill now the FIA has not shown any proof of ML used F info to win and to punish ML so badly is unfair.
Sorry for the lenghty comment, but I hope that others will use more common sense and add some serious thoughts so we can shed more light on this thing.
Last edited by Fact Man on 13 Sep 07, 23:20, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By darwin dali
#13715
Did I say redesign? Did I say modify? In order to benefit from information, there are many ways a car can be tweaked. Just, e.g., information on Ferrari's weight distribution and brake bias would have been extremely helpful to McLaren to master the Bridgestones. And even if they directly used data and modified bits and pieces or setups, etc. accordingly, I'm sure McLaren was smart enough to camouflage such usage and it would be very difficult to prove.
User avatar
By pit_babe
#13716
This is what i have to say about this whole thing.
Today's decision proves that's politically motivated. Why punish ML but not the drivers. It doesn't make sense, if they all succeded because they cheated then punish all of them. Suddenly ferrari is satisfied with the ruling. So F never cared about its drivers, they only wanted the constructor's title. If F really cared about justice and they were confident that ML used their data then they should appeal and ask for the drivers to be thrown out as well. But they didn't, why?
So far, we have not heard or seen any evidence of ML using F technology. It's been all about allegations. Of course, you can't disclose specific details about F technology, but you can tell the world how did ML use them and how they benefited from but the FIA did not show us anything (lower the floor and stuff like that is hardly considered technologically advanced). I'm talking about engineering stuff (engine, chassis) that really gives ML the edge. Also, if the FIA/F are so sure than why didn't they investigate ML cars. When you accuse someone of a crime, first thing you do is to investigate them and look for evidence, not emails and phone calls...The FIA had 3 months since this case became public to check the ML cars but they didn't! Why wait till 08, why didn't they check the cars before every race since this thing started or during the summer break. They had plenty of time to look for hard evidence and prove once for all that ML is guilty. But they chose to look for emails and phone records. Take those cars apart and look everywhere for evidence or otherwise shut up.
So the whole case revolves around whether or not other people in ML new about the dossier. If that is true, than ML should be punished. But $100 mill and removing all points is not a fair punishment. Because of the action of 1 man at ML the whole team has to pay for it. Well, how about Ferrari? Why isn't it the same thing with them. Imagine 1 employee at Microsoft shares sensitive material about Windows with their rival. I guess more than 1 head will roll. But for whatever reason it's not the case with F. Stepney stands to be the only one. If I were Montezemolo, I would fire anyone who was above him.
Another thing I would like to add is that what guarantees ML that when FIA check their 08 car no info will be leaked to F. It is well established that FIA is biased towards F. So how do they guarantee that no new technology from their car will pass illegally to F. This sets a new precedent in terms of FIA involvement in F1 car development. So if this a team is not doing well, but by next year they are in better shape, the FIA should check their car. It's going to be a nightmare if they apply the same logic to everyone else from now on. Also, if ML did use F technology to win this year (I don't believe they did), this proves that the heads at ML are a lot smarter than at F. If I were Luca, I'll fire every last person at F and bring the guys from ML.
Again, it's not an argument of who's right or wrong. It's about hard evidence that ML used F technology to their benefit. So far all we have is that ML had knowledge of F info, but nothing about whether or not they used in 07. Yes ML should get punished for knowing about it and not doing anything. Up untill now the FIA has not shown any proof of ML used F info to win and to punish ML so badly is unfair.
Sorry for the lenghty comment, but I hope that others will use more common sense and add some serious thoughts so we can shed more light on this thing.
Well Said
User avatar
By darwin dali
#13717
That's twisted - McLaren cheat and thereby get more points, get caught and stripped of the points and you claim that Ferrari's win of the constructors championship is tainted? Yes, tainted by McLaren. Despite being at a disadvantage, Ferrari was able to fight for the title - chapeau!
as well as they did last year,?? the court action was their only hope of winning anything


Well, they beat Renault this year and would have beaten McLaren as well except for the illegal data exchange. So, Ferrari progressed (as did BMW for that matter) while McLaren progressed but also cheated. Not only that, McLaren used that data to rat on Ferrari's attempt to push the envelope in terms of regs. for moving floors (which incidentally BMW also did). How low of RD: trying to look in the public's eyes as the good guys who don't 'do that kind of thing' and don't cheat while all along they were the biggest and most scandalous cheaters ever! It turns my stomach.
User avatar
By Fact Man
#13718
If that's your argument DD, than why even bother with auditing ML car for 08. If you think that they are smart enough to camouflage it than they can add new stolen technology without the FIA knowing about it. And if you are right, than the FIA has no way of proving that ML used F info to their edvantage in 07 and, therefore, their argument is false. You contradict yourself! Please use more common sense!
User avatar
By pit_babe
#13719
That's twisted - McLaren cheat and thereby get more points, get caught and stripped of the points and you claim that Ferrari's win of the constructors championship is tainted? Yes, tainted by McLaren. Despite being at a disadvantage, Ferrari was able to fight for the title - chapeau!
as well as they did last year,?? the court action was their only hope of winning anything


Well, they beat Renault this year and would have beaten McLaren as well except for the illegal data exchange. So, Ferrari progressed (as did BMW for that matter) while McLaren progressed but also cheated. Not only that, McLaren used that data to rat on Ferrari's attempt to push the envelope in terms of regs. for moving floors (which incidentally BMW also did). How low of RD: trying to look in the public's eyes as the good guys who don't 'do that kind of thing' and don't cheat while all along they were the biggest and most scandalous cheaters ever! It turns my stomach.
I have the same feeling about ferrari
User avatar
By darwin dali
#13720
If that's your argument DD, than why even bother with auditing ML car for 08. If you think that they are smart enough to camouflage it than they can add new stolen technology without the FIA knowing about it. And if you are right, than the FIA has no way of proving that ML used F info to their edvantage in 07 and, therefore, their argument is false. You contradict yourself! Please use more common sense!


You lost your common sense! Read my post more carefully.
And proof doesn't need to be a piece on a car, it can be in communications between team members that outline a way of tackling a problem that was inspired by that new info from Ferrari - geez!
User avatar
By Fact Man
#13721
DD, where is your proof that ML used F data to their advantage. Please show us the FIA document that says so. It's only your personal opinion but please give us more proof so we can all start supporting Ferrari!
User avatar
By pit_babe
#13722
If that's your argument DD, than why even bother with auditing ML car for 08. If you think that they are smart enough to camouflage it than they can add new stolen technology without the FIA knowing about it. And if you are right, than the FIA has no way of proving that ML used F info to their edvantage in 07 and, therefore, their argument is false. You contradict yourself! Please use more common sense!


You lost your common sense! Read my post more carefully.
And proof doesn't need to be a piece on a car, it can be in communications between team members that outline a way of tackling a problem that was inspired by that new info from Ferrari - geez!
I think you have tunnel vision on this, you see what you want to see
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