FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[darwin dali]

what really caught my eye were

1. the cost cap doesn't include the engine costs
2. engine freedom interms of rev limits...

i think we might be seeing some higher revving engines in the coming season...

TOO BAD they dont allow turbo engines....
but i heard BMW is trying with a diesel engine? is turbo diesel engine banned?

The fuel is prescribed to be regular gasoline that's available to any motorist in the EU. Not sure they could get an exemption for diesel fuel - doubt it seriously.

[yamashek]

what really caught my eye were

1. the cost cap doesn't include the engine costs
2. engine freedom interms of rev limits...

i think we might be seeing some higher revving engines in the coming season...

TOO BAD they dont allow turbo engines....
but i heard BMW is trying with a diesel engine? is turbo diesel engine banned?

The fuel is prescribed to be regular gasoline that's available to any motorist in the EU. Not sure they could get an exemption for diesel fuel - doubt it seriously.

hmm interesting...

but anyways, forgive me if this is a bad question, but would turbocharged engines be cheaper to operate? hence help reduce costs? (i have no idea if it does or doesnt really)

[andydumi]

They say the deadline to decide which way to go is May 29. Does that mean they will finalize all the rules before that and not try to change stuff two weeks before the first race again?

[FerrariFan63]

They say the deadline to decide which way to go is May 29. Does that mean they will finalize all the rules before that and not try to change stuff two weeks before the first race again?

I would guess that they won't. And that teams that decide to go one way or the other will be penalised by post-deadline changes.

[bud]

They say the deadline to decide which way to go is May 29. Does that mean they will finalize all the rules before that and not try to change stuff two weeks before the first race again?

I would await FOTAs response i dont think these regulations will go ahead. especially with Ferrari standing up to the FIA finally!

[yamashek]

do you think turbo engines might be easier on the budget than the NA engines?



i personally think it MIGHT be easier on the budget to use a turbo engine, but i am not entirely sure...
but on the other hand, reliability issues might arise...
turbo VS. NA engines with respect to lowering "running" costs...

but i can see that a turbo engine might require less space on the chassis (i.e. v6 turbo and v8), which could in turn give the car a bigger fuel tank for the fuel ban, no? in a way, turbo systems does recycle the exhaust air to give the car more power, so it is 'economical' in that sense...

[texasmr2]

I see turbo engines being more reliable because the rev's can be lowered, the boost regulated aswell as it being a more compact ie space saving package. HP could be the same as it is now, around 800HP, with torque being raised with no ill effects to the engine.

Half of the reliability issues imho are because of the high rpm's of the current engine package.

[bud]

Turbo engines go bang quicker than N/A

[texasmr2]

Turbo engines go bang quicker than N/A

Without proper engine/boost management yes, remember I'm an old school spooler .

[billindenver]

I race a turbo car now and I would certainly not call a turbo a gas saver when it comes to racing. I get about 4 miles to the gallon on the track. A turbo allows a smaller displacement to put out as if it were larger, but horsepower is still the measure of an engines ability to take fuel and air and make it explode...so its not really saving fuel when wide open. They do save fuel on a street car, because 400hp normally aspirated is a big V8 which is burning big fuel even when just cruising...whereas 400hp can be had with a 2.5 liter 4 cylinder on boost but when cruising its just a 4 banger so gets much better mileage. Turbo's only burn big fuel when spooled up. The benefit in F1 could be less displacement, so less weight for the same power and that could translate into mileage gains...but the gain would not be much and the goal here is to save money... all the rule changes do is force teams to SPEND MORE developing to the new rules.

A perfect example is the V-10 to V-8 switch in order to lower power output and save money on engine wear. In reality, it ended up costing millions for every engine manufacturer to develop a completely new engine when all the FIA really needed to do was choke down the intake size...poof less power=more reliability on the same, proven engines. An entire new engine was developed when all that was needed was a $5 intake size change. I swear the guys who are making the 'save money' rules have no clue what saving money really means. Crazy Max runs around making speeches about saving money meanwhile he is forcing the teams to spend tons of money on new aero etc etc in order to compete.

[bud]

yep, good example of the turbo efficiency misconception would be to take that 400HP V8 and stick a turbo on it. will that make it more efficient all of the sudden? ha no. As you said a turbo being fuel efficient only works on the right applications. maybe a 1.5Ltr V6 for F1 like the old days

[yamashek]

yep, good example of the turbo efficiency misconception would be to take that 400HP V8 and stick a turbo on it. will that make it more efficient all of the sudden? ha no. As you said a turbo being fuel efficient only works on the right applications. maybe a 1.5Ltr V6 for F1 like the old days

to be honest, i really liked the old 1.5L V6 turbo....
could you see a return to turbo in the near future, bud?

[Gaz]

Mosley: F1 could survive without Ferrari

By Edd Straw Saturday, May 2nd 2009, 09:56 GMT

Max MosleyFIA president Max Mosley has insisted that Formula 1 could live without Ferrari in response to Luca di Montezemolo's criticism of the budget cap regulations.

The Ferrari chairman hit out at the introduction of the budget cap in a letter to the FIA revealed by AUTOSPORT yesterday.

In the letter di Montezemolo said the budget cap could undermine the credibility of the sport and be difficult to implement. He suggested that "all aspects of the new regulations should be carefully reviewed."

But Mosley insists that the £40 million budget cap is vital for the health of F1, saying that if Ferrari was to be lost to F1 it would simply be "sad". He added that he expects it to be difficult for the team to justify its opposition to the budget cap to the Ferrari board given the amount of money it could save.

"The sport could survive without Ferrari," Mosley told the Financial Times. "It would be very sad to lose Ferrari. It is the Italian national team.

"I hope and think that when a team goes to its board and says, 'I want to go to war with the FIA, because I want to be able to spend £100m more than the FIA want me to spend,' the board will say, 'Why can't you spend £40m if the other teams can do it?'"

Mosley emphasised that the FIA would not back away from the budget cap and that it is vital for the financial health of F1 in both the long and short term.

"The cost cap is here to stay," he said. "There is room for discussion, it might go up or down in 2011 and if the economy picks up, say in 2014, then it might go up. You might adjust the cap in the interests of the sport, but you'll have everyone on a level playing field.

"The credit crunch hasn't really hit F1 yet. Obviously we lost Honda, but the real crunch will come when current contracts come to be renewed.

"Those contracts were signed before their share prices took a dump. I believe FOM [Formula One Management, the commercial rights holder of F1] will not be able to give the teams as much money as they have."

Mosley admitted that policing the budget cap would be difficult, but that any suspected irregularities would be thoroughly investigated.

"The difficulty and danger of cheating would be enormous," Mosley told the FT. "If we had the slightest suspicion that anyone was cheating, we'd send a team in to check. That's part of the deal.

"The [Inland] Revenue can't put even one tax inspector into each business on a permanent basis, we can put several in."

F1 can survive without Ferrari - Yes but would we really want an F1 without Ferrari.

F1 needs to cut costs yes but a Two teir formula is going to cause issues Ferrari needs to get with Mclaren and Williams on this rather than go at the FIA on their own.

[billindenver]

I am not a Ferrari fan in that I don't cheer for them to win each race...but I certainly do appreciate a builder who does everything in house. I appreciate having Ferrari on the grid and want them to continue to be there...partly because they are an F1 powerhouse and partly because I enjoy watching other colors passing red cars on the track.

I doubt Ferrari is going anywhere, budget cap or not...but I can see their point about budget caps being ridiculous.

Max: Hello teams, you can now only spend $40 million dollars a year.
Ferrari: No problem. We buy our engines for 25 dollars each.
Max: Hold on, you build your own engines.
Ferrari: No sir, those are built by Ferrari F1 Engines Inc. and they charge us 25 dollars per engine...installed.
Max: Ok, well that's pretty cheap...and that's good for the entire sport.
Ferrari: Well, not exactly. That same engine costs 5 million if another team wants to buy it.
Max: You can't do that.
Ferrari: Maxxie boy, you can't tell us what to charge for our products. Nor can you tell our factory not to charge us 4 dollars per hour for air tunnel time. I don't know what in the world made you think you could regulate something like spending, but now that you are trying....sooner or later you will figure out how much time you are wasting
Max: You have been a bad prisoner, bend over that table and hand me the bullwhip, the whipped cream and the synthetic motor oil

[yamashek]

I am not a Ferrari fan in that I don't cheer for them to win each race...but I certainly do appreciate a builder who does everything in house. I appreciate having Ferrari on the grid and want them to continue to be there...partly because they are an F1 powerhouse and partly because I enjoy watching other colors passing red cars on the track.

I doubt Ferrari is going anywhere, budget cap or not...but I can see their point about budget caps being ridiculous.

Max: Hello teams, you can now only spend $40 million dollars a year.
Ferrari: No problem. We buy our engines for 25 dollars each.
Max: Hold on, you build your own engines.
Ferrari: No sir, those are built by Ferrari F1 Engines Inc. and they charge us 25 dollars per engine...installed.
Max: Ok, well that's pretty cheap...and that's good for the entire sport.
Ferrari: Well, not exactly. That same engine costs 5 million if another team wants to buy it.
Max: You can't do that.
Ferrari: Maxxie boy, you can't tell us what to charge for our products. Nor can you tell our factory not to charge us 4 dollars per hour for air tunnel time. I don't know what in the world made you think you could regulate something like spending, but now that you are trying....sooner or later you will figure out how much time you are wasting
Max: You have been a bad prisoner, bend over that table and hand me the bullwhip, the whipped cream and the synthetic motor oil

kind of true though...