FORUMula1.com

[Fact Man]

hey bmw power, where was your integrity when Ferrari/MS broke the rules and got away with it?

[deMuRe]

The only reason why McLaren weren't punished is because somebody up top wants the TV ratings bonanza to continue on Hamilton's freakishly good start to his F1 career.

[bmwpower]

hey bmw power, where was your integrity when Ferrari/MS broke the rules and got away with it?

Just like you, I've not discovered this board yet and have some wonderful discussions.

[bmwpower]

The only reason why McLaren weren't punished is because somebody up top wants the TV ratings bonanza to continue on Hamilton's freakishly good start to his F1 career.

Actually, if they dock both drivers each ten points or 15 points and the constructor another points, you will see ratings go up the roof with the championship now much closer and freakish too.

[bud]

FFS for the last time McLaren were found guilty of breaching the sporting code, that in which a team must make sure all team members adhere to the sporting code. Due to ONE not all having Ferrari data. Which in this instance Ferrari also breached as they didnt control who ever ( probably Stepney) from leaking info and causing all the nonsense in the first place.
McLaren WERE NOT FOUND GUILTY OF USING DATA TO AN ADVANTAGE if they were they would have been docked points.

Everyone who cant differentiate between the two go follow the leader.. baaaa baaaaaaaaa your red itie flock is calling

[McLaren Fan]

It seems everyone, well McLaren fans mostly are comparing this case to what other teams have done in the past in regards to using banned or illegal parts on their cars. Since day one in motorsport racing, there are rules governed and written by different sanctions. Don't matter what motorsport you race, every single team will try to push the rules to the limits and some tried to exceed the limits without getting caught. If you are caught or not, its o.k because you choosed design and but the illegal/banned parts on the car. You parts that you used illegal was designed by your team, tested, and manufactured for the car. What McLaren did was stole someone's technical data and lied that they never had it.

No. I'm not comparing anything to what has happened in the past. I'm saying Briatore is being a hypocrite coming on criticising other teams when has history himself of not being the most honest.

Then why are they found guilty?? simple, you or I don't have all the facts but the WSC did and they found them guilty.

They are being dealt with separately because it is known for certain that they were in possession of the documents.

Nope I am not a lawyer, or you?? I based my info on facts that was made public by the FIA and WSC. I am not a McLaren or Ferrari fan but I am a die-hard F1 fan. I root for the sport and want to see a championship season goes untainted.
With this case, there's two sides you can pick from. On the left are people seeing absolutely nothing wrong with what McLaren did, and they will defend it at all cost, some will even admit that yes the WSC found McLaren guilty but Ferrari had it coming and they will dip into the past about what Ferrari did. On the right are F1 fans wanting to see some integrity and honor brought back to F1 and everyone has to answer to all charges for the good of the sport.
The left side is what we called FANBOYS, the right is what we called F1 Fanatics. Which side is everyone on??

I'm not a lawyer but I have a reasonable understanding of the system which works as follows: if there is not enough evidence to prosecute somebody, you cannot prosecute them. If in the event more evidence is found and it can be proven, they a person or organisation is prosecuted. That is what the FIA have said to McLaren.

Furthermore, I'm not on any of the sides you pointed out. I have my brain and my own views. The side I'm on is nothing can proven against McLaren and if something ever was proven against McLaren then I would want them punished as they should be. As a McLaren fan, it would mean very little to win a championship which we were helped to or cheated to get.

[Dazza]

James Allen's view:

http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type ... O_ID=40190

[Marco]

James Allen's view:

http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type ... O_ID=40190

He can't be taken seriously, but I do agree with some of his woefully obvious observations.

[bmwpower]

No. I'm not comparing anything to what has happened in the past.

No I am not saying you, I am saying some McLaren fans.

I'm not a lawyer but I have a reasonable understanding of the system which works as follows: if there is not enough evidence to prosecute somebody, you cannot prosecute them. If in the event more evidence is found and it can be proven, they a person or organisation is prosecuted. That is what the FIA have said to McLaren.

This has nothing to do with the law. The WSC/FIA are a governing body for a sport, not a court of law. The WSC/FIA write rules for all teams to play fair, if a team breaks a rule, then they must penalized or punished according to the rules, but NOT PROSECUTED because they don't have the power to do so. My point, and anyone with anything related to intelligent is this, you can't have it both way. Either you find them innocent and go free but you can't find them guilty and go free. NO ONE will be abled to prove McLaren used the documents to their advantage because its impossible. McLaren could have looked at the technical data and find out what is the weight bias of the Ferrari car is or their brake bias and know exactly where to improve their own cars to attack Ferrari, yet this will never be abled to prove because they didn't copy anything from the Ferrari car. The best possible outcome for McLaren was to be docked some points because right now it will hang over the teams' head all season long. They will be hounded with questions and accusations. Just pay the penalty and say, look we did the crime and we did the time, now lets move on and race.

[McLaren Fan]

This has nothing to do with the law. The WSC/FIA are a governing body for a sport, not a court of law. The WSC/FIA write rules for all teams to play fair, if a team breaks a rule, then they must penalized or punished according to the rules, but NOT PROSECUTED because they don't have the power to do so. My point, and anyone with anything related to intelligent is this, you can't have it both way. Either you find them innocent and go free but you can't find them guilty and go free. NO ONE will be abled to prove McLaren used the documents to their advantage because its impossible. McLaren could have looked at the technical data and find out what is the weight bias of the Ferrari car is or their brake bias and know exactly where to improve their own cars to attack Ferrari, yet this will never be abled to prove because they didn't copy anything from the Ferrari car. The best possible outcome for McLaren was to be docked some points because right now it will hang over the teams' head all season long. They will be hounded with questions and accusations. Just pay the penalty and say, look we did the crime and we did the time, now lets move on and race.

I am merely using a legal metaphor. The FIA and other sporting bodies etc. all work in a similar way. Unless you can prove a team have done something then it's very difficult to do anything against them. As you say, it is nigh-impossible to prove what McLaren have or haven't done and whether anybody else apart from Coughlan knew about the documents. All they can do is keep an eye on things and if further evidence comes to light, review it. Coughlan and Stepney are being dealt with separately.

There are so many other issues to this saga than just accusations of spying: Stepney, an ally of Ross Brawn, had fallen out of favour with Ferrari and was looking out; Stepney, in the sport for 20 plus years, has always been a man of high standing (the same could be said about other people involved); Coughlan wanted out of McLaren; Coughlan and Stepney meeting Honda; how amateur the whole thing looks must cast some suspicion on things; and accusations from Stepney that he has been stitched up and Ferrari have been following him etc. In my opinion, there is more to this scandal than just McLaren trying to get the head's up on Ferrari; something doesn't add up and there are a lot of people out there with chips in their shoulder and under-performing etc.

[darwin dali]

"There will always be that stain, that reservation with people asking if the information was used and how long the team had it," Watson told the Sun after McLaren last Friday were found guilty but not penalised by the World Council.

Watson indicated that even he has reservations about his former team, for whom he spent five seasons starting in 1979, and finishing the 1982 drivers' standings in third.

Referring to the spying scandal involving suspended chief designer Mike Coughlan, he said: "McLaren did not just have details about the car but also about how the team operates.

"It was Ferrari's Bible."

Watson also accused the FIA of stirring more negative publicity by handing down such a controversial finding, with even usual Ferrari nemesis Flavio Briatore agreeing that McLaren should have paid the consequences having been found guilty.

The verdict has also opened the very real prospect of a Ferrari appeal.

Watson said of F1's governing body: "They haven't helped anybody. The FIA have done more to bring the sport into disrepute by not ending this."

[bud]

Darwins favourite past time cut n pasting again! Why dont you show the stories from the other side of the fence for this debate? youre just a w***er simple as that! go eat a cake to pictures of Schumacher some more and give us a rest!

[darwin dali]

It's my prerogative to post opinions that support my view - buzz off bud.

[bud]

An ex driver who basis his view on the ferrari media slant of the story ofcourse is going to support your view.

Ferrari would lead you to believe everyone inlcuding Ron studied the data i mean Watson is saying McLaren and not Coughlan had the data. he got that from Ferrari.....

[darwin dali]

uh, no, from Coughlan.