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[bud]

how can someone be found GUILTY yet not punished or penalized??

'nuf said.

if they were found guilty of using the data they would have and still will be penalized if further evidence comes to hand.

all that the FIA got out of this was Coughlan had in possession the data which is what they were found guilty of.
so if Coughlan say had Kiddy *censored* at his house does that mean McLaren are all pedaphiles?
and if Coughlan studied these documents thoroughly being cheif designer theres no proof that any of the data was added to McLarens car and theres no proof that he influenced strategies which wouldnt explain mclarens pace over ferrari from monte carlo to canada anyway as it was pure performance advantage.

[7UpJordan]

If there is an end to this ongoing espionage saga, it'll end exactly at the same time the Carlos Tevez saga ends.

[McLaren Fan]

I agree with Bud on this one, naturally. The simple fact is the FIA had nothing on McLaren. There is no evidence to suggest McLaren had 'Ferrari parts' on their car or any intellectual data was used against Ferrari. Coughlan said in his affidavit he told some people whom he worked with at McLaren that he had the document, however, McLaren deny this. Coughlan and McLaren have their story and their reasons for it, however, it's all Coughlan's word versus McLaren's. All avenues have been pursued and nothing has been found.

Furthermore, McLaren have not got off with this as some people are making out. Although McLaren are free to go now, if it does transpire that McLaren have, are or will use something from the document they will disqualified this year and next. What more are the FIA expected to do?

This is also not the scandal for Formula One that people are saying. 'Spying' has been going on in the sport for years. You see a car on the grid with new aerodynamic parts which can be copied. Remember the Lotus 79, remember the MP4/13 braking system issue. Also, what about designers moving team. Coughlan wanted to leave McLaren so he would use his McLaren knowledge wherever he went; that's the reason why Ferrari are where they are today: they poached Benneton's staff.

Let's also remember the Italians have form when it comes to sport. Football, motor racing, be what it may, they are corrupt to the hilt. The whole amateurish story - imagine Coughlam getting his wife to photocopy such a sensitive document at the local newsagency, please - makes me very suspicious as to whether Ferrari are making a scapegoat for themselves.

[Dazza]

But how did McLaren get found guilty today and then escape punishment? In the past Ferrari were always said to be in the FIAs pocket, is it now McLarens turn?

I think its clear that the FIA's favoured team this year is McLaren. Hamilton being lifted out of the gravel in Germany, Alonso almost taking out a Renault in the pits without any sanction, and now this verdict that says it's OK to be in possession of another team's technical information

here's a photograph depicting the World Motor Sport Council members at the meeting in Paris :

http://img341.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fiagz0.jpg

[deMuRe]

McLaren are quick because of Ferrari technology.

Cheating bar stewards...

[Fact Man]

The Ferrari Era is over. That's what Tifosi's can't stomach. The days where Ferrari has the FIA in their pockets are over. So stop the whining and bitching like pussies. Get over it and let's get back to the race. Ferrari cheated it's way around the FIA for many years. Their luck is over and real F1 fans are glad it is!

Bye bye MS & Todt and all.

[Dazza]

The Ferrari Era is over. That's what Tifosi's can't stomach. The days where Ferrari has the FIA in their pockets are over. So stop the whining and bitching like pussies. Get over it and let's get back to the race. Ferrari cheated it's way around the FIA for many years. Their luck is over and real F1 fans are glad it is!

Bye bye MS & Todt and all.

I agree the Schumacher / Todt era is over. Ferrari have not won a championship since 2004.
However Ferrari certainly did not have the FIA in their pockets from 2002 onwards when they changed half the rules in the book to make Ferrari lose. Now concerning this current affair, what Mclaren fans cannot stomach is that their first championship crown since 1999 will be tainted.

[bmwpower]

'Spying' has been going on in the sport for years. You see a car on the grid with new aerodynamic parts which can be copied.

You will see team members from other teams looking at each other's cars and have people take pictures of them at races and practice, this is legal because these cars are in public viewing, you are showing the cars in public to the fans, you can't protect what is showing. For example, lets say Renualt's been looking at Sauber's new front wing, they take pictures and studied it while the Sauber is on pit row. With the pictures, they go back to the factory, made a set of wings similiar to it, spend thousands of dollars testing it over and over before deciding to gamble with it at a race, this is common and fair practice. What's illegal and not fair is stealing someone's 700+ pages of technical data with all the datas on someone's car. With this data, you don't need to do any work, just look at the data and you will know what works and what don't, and what to improve and what not to improve.

it's all Coughlan's word versus McLaren's

Show me any documents that its Coughlan's vs. McLaren. WSC found both guilty.

Furthermore, McLaren have not got off with this as some people are making out. Although McLaren are free to go now, if it does transpire that McLaren have, are or will use something from the document they will disqualified this year and next. What more are the FIA expected to do?

McLaren didn't get off easy?? please. You can look at someone's technical data and improve on it without copying the design, unfortunately, this is never be abled to proved. The FIA should have dock some points off McLaren.
This case sums it up, if you are a young engineer in F1, its o.k to steal someone's technical data, study it to your advantage and if you are caught, just say you didn't use it.

[darwin dali]

well said bmwpower

[McLaren Fan]

Show me any documents that its Coughlan's vs. McLaren. WSC found both guilty.

Of course it's Coughlan's word versus McLaren. He said other members of the team knew he had the docment, although refused to look at them. McLaren say they never knew about the documents. Nobody can prove either story. No doucments are required to prove this.

McLaren didn't get off easy?? please. You can look at someone's technical data and improve on it without copying the design, unfortunately, this is never be abled to proved. The FIA should have dock some points off McLaren.
This case sums it up, if you are a young engineer in F1, its o.k to steal someone's technical data, study it to your advantage and if you are caught, just say you didn't use it.

I never said McLaren got off easy. The fact is there is insufficient evidence to prove that multiple members of McLaren knew that Coughlan had the document. Furthermore, the FIA inspected McLaren's cars and the organisation as a whole and were happy enough. Under the circumstances all they can do is say you're off for the moment but if we find anything you will be punished. It's the same in all aspects of the law. If there is insufficient evidence a person cannot be charged or convicted and the trial will either not go ahead or fall through. In both cases now dealing with McLaren, the latter happened. If new evidence is found however, the case is re-opened and brought back before the relevant authorities. McLaren will be brought before the FIA again if new evidence is found.

Coughlan and Stepney are being dealt with separately and will not be allowed off so there is no green light to do whatever they did.

You should get a job writing for an Italian tabloid. You clearly don't understand how laws work and have overlooked numerous items.

[Dazza]

Here's Flavio Briatore's view :

http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3 ... 10,00.html

[darwin dali]

Here's Flavio Briatore's view :

http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3 ... 10,00.html

Right on.

[darwin dali]

Bottom line for me is: the whole affair confirmed for me why I have disliked McLaren in the past and will continue to do so until two-faced RD retires.

[McLaren Fan]

His view completely overlooks all the facts. He is suggesting McLaren used the information to their benefit. There is nowhere near enough evidence to prove this, so I'm afraid Mr. Briatore is verging on slander. Furthermore, what has the pilic talking about. He was running illegal traction control in 1994. Yes, not proven officially, I know, how hypocritical of me. Still, it was proven it was their car's software, Senna and Peter Collins were sure it hand, as were other drivers.

[bmwpower]

His view completely overlooks all the facts. He is suggesting McLaren used the information to their benefit. There is nowhere near enough evidence to prove this, so I'm afraid Mr. Briatore is verging on slander. Furthermore, what has the pilic talking about. He was running illegal traction control in 1994. Yes, not proven officially, I know, how hypocritical of me. Still, it was proven it was their car's software, Senna and Peter Collins were sure it hand, as were other drivers

It seems everyone, well McLaren fans mostly are comparing this case to what other teams have done in the past in regards to using banned or illegal parts on their cars. Since day one in motorsport racing, there are rules governed and written by different sanctions. Don't matter what motorsport you race, every single team will try to push the rules to the limits and some tried to exceed the limits without getting caught. If you are caught or not, its o.k because you choosed design and but the illegal/banned parts on the car. You parts that you used illegal was designed by your team, tested, and manufactured for the car. What McLaren did was stole someone's technical data and lied that they never had it.

The fact is there is insufficient evidence to prove that multiple members of McLaren knew that Coughlan had the document

Then why are they found guilty?? simple, you or I don't have all the facts but the WSC did and they found them guilty.

You should get a job writing for an Italian tabloid. You clearly don't understand how laws work and have overlooked numerous items.

Nope I am not a lawyer, or you?? I based my info on facts that was made public by the FIA and WSC. I am not a McLaren or Ferrari fan but I am a die-hard F1 fan. I root for the sport and want to see a championship season goes untainted.
With this case, there's two sides you can pick from. On the left are people seeing absolutely nothing wrong with what McLaren did, and they will defend it at all cost, some will even admit that yes the WSC found McLaren guilty but Ferrari had it coming and they will dip into the past about what Ferrari did. On the right are F1 fans wanting to see some integrity and honor brought back to F1 and everyone has to answer to all charges for the good of the sport.
The left side is what we called FANBOYS, the right is what we called F1 Fanatics. Which side is everyone on??