FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[Jamie]

They are illegally using the rear crash structure in order to generate additional down force? In which I find could be classed as n aero dynamic did on in which on BBC Radio 5L they also thought in the beginning to the Oz weekend it was an add on in which will improve, as if McLaren used the same diffuser it would shave of half a second and also help them with there main down force problem! That goes the same for Ferrari...Weird how most of the teams suffer from the down force problem and Brawn seems not to have that problem

Loopholes aren't illegal, they're...loopholes. Once again, Brawn saw the opportunity, allowed teams the chance to close it, they refused. So he used it. It was obviously within the rules otherwise he wouldn't have had to offer them the chance to close the loophole. Face it, the other teams just weren't smart enough to use it like Brawn, Toyota and Williams have.

If it is fount illegal today. You will soon have to change your opinion and revert back to 2008. While we all chat away peoples and teams fate are being decided.

[jomaripretty]

its official the diffuser has been declared illegal. race win by brawn, toyota, williams forfeited

[Jamie]

I didn't believe you.....

[irons_4_ever]

its official the diffuser has been declared illegal. race win by brawn, toyota, williams forfeited

is he taking the piss

[Gaz]

its official the diffuser has been declared illegal. race win by brawn, toyota, williams forfeited

don't post bullpoo.

not funny.

[Jensonb]

In that case then today if fount illegal they should make major changes to the rules and make them strict so we all have the same sort of car, different aerodynamics etc. But with the same principles.

No. Absolutely not. No way. That is against the very ideals of Formula One. If this gets even remotely close to a control Formula, I'm out. I'm unhappy enough with the control parts we have, if the cars all start looking roughly the same I'm going to walk. It doesn't matter if some of the teams are unable to make cars as good as those at the front, that's actually the point. Motorsport is not about making ti fair, it's about doing the best job you can.

Anyway, on another issue, Ferrari are unlikely to be able to install a GeniusDiffuser before Turkey apparently. Red Bull are possibly on a similar time frame, but McLaren and Renault might be able to put one together in time for Spain or Bahrain.

I hate that they're making us wait until tomorrow, having (Up until today) led us to believe we would find out today. It seems completely pointless.

[Denthúl]

In that case then today if fount illegal they should make major changes to the rules and make them strict so we all have the same sort of car, different aerodynamics etc. But with the same principles.

No. Absolutely not. No way. That is against the very ideals of Formula One. If this gets even remotely close to a control Formula, I'm out. I'm unhappy enough with the control parts we have, if the cars all start looking roughly the same I'm going to walk. It doesn't matter if some of the teams are unable to make cars as good as those at the front, that's actually the point. Motorsport is not about making ti fair, it's about doing the best job you can.

Anyway, on another issue, Ferrari are unlikely to be able to install a GeniusDiffuser before Turkey apparently. Red Bull are possibly on a similar time frame, but McLaren and Renault might be able to put one together in time for Spain or Bahrain.

I hate that they're making us wait until tomorrow, having (Up until today) led us to believe we would find out today. It seems completely pointless.

Not sure about Bahrain - isn't that only a week after China?

[Gaz]

In that case then today if fount illegal they should make major changes to the rules and make them strict so we all have the same sort of car, different aerodynamics etc. But with the same principles.

No. Absolutely not. No way. That is against the very ideals of Formula One. If this gets even remotely close to a control Formula, I'm out. I'm unhappy enough with the control parts we have, if the cars all start looking roughly the same I'm going to walk. It doesn't matter if some of the teams are unable to make cars as good as those at the front, that's actually the point. Motorsport is not about making ti fair, it's about doing the best job you can.

Anyway, on another issue, Ferrari are unlikely to be able to install a GeniusDiffuser before Turkey apparently. Red Bull are possibly on a similar time frame, but McLaren and Renault might be able to put one together in time for Spain or Bahrain.

I hate that they're making us wait until tomorrow, having (Up until today) led us to believe we would find out today. It seems completely pointless.

100% agree.

@ VB why don't you whatch A1GP they have a Spec car which is built by Ferrari if you want to watch the same cars.

But this is F1 its about Innovation and team vs team aswell as driver vs driver.

On the subject of If there made legal >

I think Mclaren will have one in place for China if not Bahrain i think theres can be adjusted to be 2 stage 1 one stage but there stating within the rules because there parainoid about the FIA.

Look at the pics on F1technical.com looks like there a bit to remove.

[Denthúl]

In that case then today if fount illegal they should make major changes to the rules and make them strict so we all have the same sort of car, different aerodynamics etc. But with the same principles.

No. Absolutely not. No way. That is against the very ideals of Formula One. If this gets even remotely close to a control Formula, I'm out. I'm unhappy enough with the control parts we have, if the cars all start looking roughly the same I'm going to walk. It doesn't matter if some of the teams are unable to make cars as good as those at the front, that's actually the point. Motorsport is not about making ti fair, it's about doing the best job you can.

Anyway, on another issue, Ferrari are unlikely to be able to install a GeniusDiffuser before Turkey apparently. Red Bull are possibly on a similar time frame, but McLaren and Renault might be able to put one together in time for Spain or Bahrain.

I hate that they're making us wait until tomorrow, having (Up until today) led us to believe we would find out today. It seems completely pointless.

100% agree.

@ VB why don't you whatch A1GP they have a Spec car which is built by Ferrari if you want to watch the same cars.

But this is F1 its about Innovation and team vs team aswell as driver vs driver.

On the subject of If there made legal >

I think Mclaren will have one in place for China if not Bahrain i think theres can be adjusted to be 2 stage 1 one stage but there stating within the rules because there parainoid about the FIA.

Look at the pics on F1technical.com looks like there a bit to remove.

Any diffuser in place for China would be rushed. Theissen has already described, in detail, just how long it would take to do it properly and get it to work with the car as a whole.

[racechick]

In that case then today if fount illegal they should make major changes to the rules and make them strict so we all have the same sort of car, different aerodynamics etc. But with the same principles.

No. Absolutely not. No way. That is against the very ideals of Formula One. If this gets even remotely close to a control Formula, I'm out. I'm unhappy enough with the control parts we have, if the cars all start looking roughly the same I'm going to walk. It doesn't matter if some of the teams are unable to make cars as good as those at the front, that's actually the point. Motorsport is not about making ti fair, it's about doing the best job you can.

Anyway, on another issue, Ferrari are unlikely to be able to install a GeniusDiffuser before Turkey apparently. Red Bull are possibly on a similar time frame, but McLaren and Renault might be able to put one together in time for Spain or Bahrain.

I hate that they're making us wait until tomorrow, having (Up until today) led us to believe we would find out today. It seems completely pointless.

100% agree.

@ VB why don't you whatch A1GP they have a Spec car which is built by Ferrari if you want to watch the same cars.

But this is F1 its about Innovation and team vs team aswell as driver vs driver.

On the subject of If there made legal >

I think Mclaren will have one in place for China if not Bahrain i think theres can be adjusted to be 2 stage 1 one stage but there stating within the rules because there parainoid about the FIA.

Look at the pics on F1technical.com looks like there a bit to remove.

Any diffuser in place for China would be rushed. Theissen has already described, in detail, just how long it would take to do it properly and get it to work with the car as a whole.

Thats assuming there wasnt one already made awaiting the outcome of today

[bud]

OPENING SALVOS FIRED AT PARIS HEARING
Tuesday 14th April 2009


Ross Brawn was described as "a person of supreme arrogance" as the opening salvos were fired in the diffuser row hearing.

Ferrari, Renault, Red Bull Racing and BMW Sauber squared up against Brawn GP, Toyota and Williams in front of five judges representing the International Court of Appeal.

At the heart of the matter is the conceptual design of the diffuser - an aerodynamic body part that aids performance - towards the rear of the cars belonging to the three teams in the firing line.

At the FIA headquarters, overlooking the Place de la Concorde in Paris, Brawn and motor sport's world govening body were notably singled out for criticism.

Leading the debate was Ferrari's legal representative Nigel Tozzi QC, who successfully argued the team's case over 'spygate' and at last year's inquest into Lewis Hamilton's chicane-cutting move at the Belgian Grand Prix.

Tozzi drew reference to a seemingly emotional statement made by Brawn as part of his team's submissions amongst the mountain of paperwork to hand for the five judges to wade through.

In it, Brawn claims the appeal is "vindictive", and "for people too slow off the mark".

However, Tozzi concluded his 90-minute opening remarks by claiming that "only a person of supreme arrogance would think he is right when so many of his esteemed colleagues would disagree".

Brawn GP, Toyota and Williams have designed what has become known as a "double-decker diffuser", central to which are two apertures that increase airflow, so aiding downforce that in turn increases speed.

Ferrari, Renault, Red Bull Racing and BMW Sauber insist there is nothing in the technical regulations that allow for such "holes".

As Tozzi noted: "Anyone with a command of English will tell you it is a hole, so do not let someone attempting to be clever with words defeat the express purpose of the rules."

He added: "The appeal is not because we have not made the most of an opportunity, but because Brawn, Toyota and Williams have not acted within the regulations."

The FIA, and in particular technical director Charlie Whiting, also came under fire, with Tozzi accusing them of "getting it wrong, and not understanding the point".

That appeared to be made clear when Renault's legal representative, Andrew Ford, noted the FIA and Whiting had early last season ruled illegal a design by the French manufacturer similar to that currently being used by Toyota.

As Ford remarked: "It is not that Renault missed the boat, as Brawn have pointed out, it is because the FIA said it was illegal."

Ford added: "It was at that point the diffuser was abandoned."

Ford has confirmed Renault has a prototype diffuser ready to go, potentially for this weekend's race in China, should the appeal be dismissed.

Tozzi continued: "The position of the FIA is totally baffling...we urge you to save the FIA from itself."

It was pointed out that crucial to the seven teams without the new diffuser is the cost of redevelopment as the part concerned has a bearing on several other elements of a car.

Tozzi added: "It was Max Mosley who said recently that costs must be reduced by limiting the opportunities for technical innovation.

"If the appeal is dismissed then the claims by the FIA they want to make the sport more attractive and reduce costs will sound hollow."

A further assertion is that the 'double-decker' diffuser limits the opportunities for following cars to pass, in contrast to the aims of F1's Overtaking Working Group, in particular with regard to this year's new regulations.

Given the magnitude of the case, other than the five judges, there are 38 people present, either legal counsel, team personnel or from the FIA.

i hate that Tozzi w***er ever since the spy hearings, he is a typical Lawyer a rude arrogant twat!

denthul read above about rushing one for China. it seems Renault already had one on the drawing boards!

[7UpJordan]

I wonder what kind of role McLaren will be playing at today's hearing if they've got a diffuser ready that might put them ahead of the likes of Ferrari and BMW?

[Jamie]

In that case then today if fount illegal they should make major changes to the rules and make them strict so we all have the same sort of car, different aerodynamics etc. But with the same principles.

No. Absolutely not. No way. That is against the very ideals of Formula One. If this gets even remotely close to a control Formula, I'm out. I'm unhappy enough with the control parts we have, if the cars all start looking roughly the same I'm going to walk. It doesn't matter if some of the teams are unable to make cars as good as those at the front, that's actually the point. Motorsport is not about making ti fair, it's about doing the best job you can.

Anyway, on another issue, Ferrari are unlikely to be able to install a GeniusDiffuser before Turkey apparently. Red Bull are possibly on a similar time frame, but McLaren and Renault might be able to put one together in time for Spain or Bahrain.

I hate that they're making us wait until tomorrow, having (Up until today) led us to believe we would find out today. It seems completely pointless.

100% agree.

@ VB why don't you whatch A1GP they have a Spec car which is built by Ferrari if you want to watch the same cars.

But this is F1 its about Innovation and team vs team aswell as driver vs driver.

On the subject of If there made legal >

I think Mclaren will have one in place for China if not Bahrain i think theres can be adjusted to be 2 stage 1 one stage but there stating within the rules because there parainoid about the FIA.

Look at the pics on F1technical.com looks like there a bit to remove.

Might have a gander at that, thanks pal But I totally see were your coming from. But I will have to check A1GP Ferrari are breaking my heart at the moment though I'm just hoping for a better weekend lol

[EwanM]

So Tozzi, Brawn is arrogant? I bet you weren't being paid to say that when he was winning Ferrari countless World titles.

[Jamie]

So Tozzi, Brawn is arrogant? I bet you weren't being paid to say that when he was winning Ferrari countless World titles.