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[MAD MAX]

He had four fooking days in an air-conditioned hotel room to come clean after the first stewards' meeting!! No more cheap excuses please!!

[Bovvaboy]

Ok are you even reading what i wrote? I just explained to you why McLaren didnt have a stellar 06, if you call finishing 3rd in the constructors no where

Ron is ruining this team ? how old are you? do you not even know what Ron has made McLaren into???? im not going to bother with you anymore its a waste of my time

on Mclarens scale 3rd IS nowhere!

I have been following F1 since 1975 and been a big fan, especially of Mclaren, but these last few years have totally turned me off that team. I always respected Rons way of running the team and he has built a huge business empire. But lately the guy has lost the plot. The team has usually been in the spotlight for having two good drivers who hate each other but somehow Ron made it all work and turned it into results on the track. Lately he has totally stuffed up driver selections and management of the drivers. Montoya, who was one of best and and most promising drivers to come along in a long time left F1.... Kimmi never really did much there and left, and Alonso a dual wdc, couldn't get out of there fast enough. He totally miss managed all those drivers terribly.

Now his reputation and that of the team is a running joke! Surely you can see that. They are so unsporting on the track and these recent events are showing us how they operate internally.... its sad really that such a great team with a proud history in the sport can stoop so low.

I don't mind if you don't want want to waste your time with me..... I don't want to waste my time with people who are so biased that they cant see the facts or put up a reasonable argument.

[billindenver]

Ok are you even reading what i wrote? I just explained to you why McLaren didnt have a stellar 06, if you call finishing 3rd in the constructors no where

Ron is ruining this team ? how old are you? do you not even know what Ron has made McLaren into???? im not going to bother with you anymore its a waste of my time

on Mclarens scale 3rd IS nowhere!

I have been following F1 since 1975 and been a big fan, especially of Mclaren, but these last few years have totally turned me off that team. I always respected Rons way of running the team and he has built a huge business empire. But lately the guy has lost the plot. The team has usually been in the spotlight for having two good drivers who hate each other but somehow Ron made it all work and turned it into results on the track. Lately he has totally stuffed up driver selections and management of the drivers. Montoya, who was one of best and and most promising drivers to come along in a long time left F1.... Kimmi never really did much there and left, and Alonso a dual wdc, couldn't get out of there fast enough. He totally miss managed all those drivers terribly.

Now his reputation and that of the team is a running joke! Surely you can see that. They are so unsporting on the track and these recent events are showing us how they operate internally.... its sad really that such a great team with a proud history in the sport can stoop so low.

I don't mind if you don't want want to waste your time with me..... I don't want to waste my time with people who are so biased that they cant see the facts or put up a reasonable argument.

[Gaz]

Ok are you even reading what i wrote? I just explained to you why McLaren didnt have a stellar 06, if you call finishing 3rd in the constructors no where

Ron is ruining this team ? how old are you? do you not even know what Ron has made McLaren into???? im not going to bother with you anymore its a waste of my time

on Mclarens scale 3rd IS nowhere!

I have been following F1 since 1975 and been a big fan, especially of Mclaren, but these last few years have totally turned me off that team. I always respected Rons way of running the team and he has built a huge business empire. But lately the guy has lost the plot. The team has usually been in the spotlight for having two good drivers who hate each other but somehow Ron made it all work and turned it into results on the track. Lately he has totally stuffed up driver selections and management of the drivers. Montoya, who was one of best and and most promising drivers to come along in a long time left F1.... Kimmi never really did much there and left, and Alonso a dual wdc, couldn't get out of there fast enough. He totally miss managed all those drivers terribly.

Now his reputation and that of the team is a running joke! Surely you can see that. They are so unsporting on the track and these recent events are showing us how they operate internally.... its sad really that such a great team with a proud history in the sport can stoop so low.

I don't mind if you don't want want to waste your time with me..... I don't want to waste my time with people who are so biased that they cant see the facts or put up a reasonable argument.

Kimi nearly won the championship in 03 and 05?

Alonso left because he wanted n1 status and when he didn't get it because LH was better he cried like a *censored* and duck over the team.

Everyone spies in F1 Renault were doing it and Toyota but the FIA duck Mclaren as usual.

Montoya was alright but too errati and Kimi out did him in 05.

And how are Mclaren unsporting on the track?!

And whats wrong with Rons Driver selection he picked up LH who just won the WDC for Mclaren so whats wrong with that?

They messed up with this lieing but i can see why dave and lewis did it or even if the whole team did it i can see why because the fia just want to f*** them over whenever possible.

[Bovvaboy]

I wasn't really arguing the between Kimmi and Montoya, just stating that they never reached their full potential with McLaren and I put that down to driver mismanagement. Montoya was erratic I agree but still was one of the fastest and bravest on his day. Just wasn't given the support he needed. I would have expected Ron to have realised that.

Kimmi nearly won in 03 and 05. true, but wasn't his time at Mclaren when he should have won a wdc? instead he was basically gifted the wdc at Ferrari due to the mismanagement of Hamilton and Alonso at McLaren!

Alonso I agree left due to not having number 1 status, a status he was probably promised and entitled too. But once the media got behind Lewis, Ron lost his judgement and backed him over Alonso. There were several instances in that first season that showed Hamilton was not ready for the pressure and combine that with the problems with Alonso they ended up losing everything that year. Now some may try to blame Alonso for all those problems but he was just a peed off driver who was obviously wronged and spoke out about it.

Yeah, they messed up with lying and the fia are after them so why open the door for them by blantantly lying and when having the chance to come clean, repeating the lie !!!!!!!!!!!

I take back my comment that McLaren are unsporting on the track but off the track they are a disgrace to themselves and the fans.. So my point is McLaren have no one to blame, including the fai, but themselves for their situation. If the fai have a vendetta against them it is for good reason. Sure spying and stuff goes on in all teams but the fai cant just sit back and watch blatant cheating so Mclaren are being made an example of. All their problems now can be traced to a series of bad calls made over the last few years.

[bud]

I don't mind if you don't want want to waste your time with me..... I don't want to waste my time with people who are so biased that they cant see the facts or put up a reasonable argument.

mate i was arguing with you about how much Alonso brought to McLaren in terms of technical abilities. if you had read my posts you would have realised that!

[Gaz]

I wasn't really arguing the between Kimmi and Montoya, just stating that they never reached their full potential with McLaren and I put that down to driver mismanagement. Montoya was erratic I agree but still was one of the fastest and bravest on his day. Just wasn't given the support he needed. I would have expected Ron to have realised that.

He was good yeh but he wasn't as good as kimi and that wasn't miss mangmen he was too erractic.

Kimmi nearly won in 03 and 05. true, but wasn't his time at Mclaren when he should have won a wdc? instead he was basically gifted the wdc at Ferrari due to the mismanagement of Hamilton and Alonso at McLaren!

No Hamilton lost a very close season because of China and Brazil thats all.

China was abit of a team stratagy error and the car did go abit wrong in Brazil but that wasn't miss mangment it was just unlucky and a bad stratagy call.

and we points wise won the WCC even if we were dsq so if it wasn't for spygate and a gear box issue Mclaren would of been WCC and WDC.

Hungry i was abit of a mess but that was the drivers fault not the teams.
To agressive competative hot heads trying to f*** each other over hard to manage really and one incident out of the whole season isn't too bad.

Alonso I agree left due to not having number 1 status, a status he was probably promised and entitled too. But once the media got behind Lewis, Ron lost his judgement and backed him over Alonso. There were several instances in that first season that showed Hamilton was not ready for the pressure and combine that with the problems with Alonso they ended up losing everything that year. Now some may try to blame Alonso for all those problems but he was just a peed off driver who was obviously wronged and spoke out about it.

No Mclaren always have operated equal driver status and Ron was backing Alonso or being equal intialy because of Monco, where hamilton was ordered to stay p2.

And what do you mean not ready for the pressure apart from China and Brazil he had a flawless season i'd say the pressue got to alonso more because Hamilton was a rookie and he was better.

Yeah, they messed up with lying and the fia are after them so why open the door for them by blantantly lying and when having the chance to come clean, repeating the lie !!!!!!!!!!!

Yeh that was stupid. But they got DSQ for it and that should be that now.

I take back my comment that McLaren are unsporting on the track but off the track they are a disgrace to themselves and the fans.. So my point is McLaren have no one to blame, including the fai, but themselves for their situation. If the fai have a vendetta against them it is for good reason. Sure spying and stuff goes on in all teams but the fai cant just sit back and watch blatant cheating so Mclaren are being made an example of. All their problems now can be traced to a series of bad calls made over the last few years.

No the FIA have always been hard on Mclaren, and all of these issue came about because of spa.

If they FIA had learned from Spa this issue wouldn't of occoured because there would of been somone avalible seperate from managing the safty aspect of F1 to say "yes thats fine if trulli left the track you can remain p3"

Mclaren should of perhaps understood the rules better i guess but they thought they knew them in spa and assumed they had legitimatly gave back the positon.

even when Mclaren confirmed with Whiting that was ok the FIA still duck them and stole from LH was what as a great drive.

Stuff like that spoils formula 1 Spa was a great race but rather than feel elation at my team's driver winning in such difficult conditions i just felt absoloutly gutted.

Same in Oz now and i am upset at Mclaren at lying (and when i say Mclaren i mean LH aswel - regardless of his invoment pressured or not)

But i can't help but think the FIA is to blame for this.

[billindenver]

No the FIA have always been hard on Mclaren, and all of these issue came about because of spa.

If they FIA had learned from Spa this issue wouldn't of occoured because there would of been somone avalible seperate from managing the safty aspect of F1 to say "yes thats fine if trulli left the track you can remain p3"

This sentiment has come up a few times now. The FIA is responsible for OZ because they don't have someone sitting on the radio waiting to explain the rulebook to McLaren? The rule is plain as day...Trulli went off, Lewis gets to keep the place. What about that should need clarifying to McLaren? Do you believe the FIA, in the middle of the race, is going to pull up car video etc to verify that Trulli did in fact go off? Do you think they should do that for Mclaren simply because McLaren apparently didn't really know what the rule was?

Tell me, do you believe there should be a police officer at every stop light you come to to explain whether or not you really can turn right on that red light...even though there is a sign there that explicitly says you can not? The rule is clear...the team should not have needed an explanation. What they should have said to Lewis is, if Trulli was off...remain in position. If there was a question as to whether or not Trulli went all the way off the track...that is answered after the race by an investigation...not during (unless time permits and at that time it did not), and no steward is going to investigate it during the race just because McLaren assures him it is true. After the race, the FIA was rightly investigating it but Lewis lied to them...and that is what caused all of the problems.

The problem was NOT that the FIA didn't give McLaren an answer when they asked for it. The problem was that McLaren either didn't know the rulebook or was trying to pin the stewards into putting Trulli 4th without allowing them time to investigate it. No steward in his right mind would have answered that question without investigating it, because if he was wrong...McLaren would have had grounds to say they were awarded that position by the FIA and then had it taken back.

The FIA is not responsible for explaining every black and white rule to McLaren whenever McLaren is to lazy to look it up. The problem in Oz was not the FIA, it was McLaren doing something very stupid and then rather than rethinking it and correcting the error...the next week they compounded that error and buried themselves. Both Lewis and McLaren have nobody to blame but themselves....no matter how hard their loyal fans try to scapegoat the FIA or Trulli or anyone else.

[bud]

Bill i think you know my stance on the incident but to the members who you want to try and convert to your way of thinking you come across as rude, arrogant and always on McLarens case so how can anyone distinguish your accusations of a blind fans view of who's at fault as null to someone like you who seems to hate McLaren/Lewis with a passion equal to those who love them?
it seems the views are polar and the real view of events would be somewhere in the middle!

[Gaz]

No the FIA have always been hard on Mclaren, and all of these issue came about because of spa.

If they FIA had learned from Spa this issue wouldn't of occoured because there would of been somone avalible seperate from managing the safty aspect of F1 to say "yes thats fine if trulli left the track you can remain p3"

This sentiment has come up a few times now. The FIA is responsible for OZ because they don't have someone sitting on the radio waiting to explain the rulebook to McLaren? The rule is plain as day...Trulli went off, Lewis gets to keep the place. What about that should need clarifying to McLaren? Do you believe the FIA, in the middle of the race, is going to pull up car video etc to verify that Trulli did in fact go off? Do you think they should do that for Mclaren simply because McLaren apparently didn't really know what the rule was?

Tell me, do you believe there should be a police officer at every stop light you come to to explain whether or not you really can turn right on that red light...even though there is a sign there that explicitly says you can not? The rule is clear...the team should not have needed an explanation. What they should have said to Lewis is, if Trulli was off...remain in position. If there was a question as to whether or not Trulli went all the way off the track...that is answered after the race by an investigation...not during (unless time permits and at that time it did not), and no steward is going to investigate it during the race just because McLaren assures him it is true. After the race, the FIA was rightly investigating it but Lewis lied to them...and that is what caused all of the problems.

The problem was NOT that the FIA didn't give McLaren an answer when they asked for it. The problem was that McLaren either didn't know the rulebook or was trying to pin the stewards into putting Trulli 4th without allowing them time to investigate it. No steward in his right mind would have answered that question without investigating it, because if he was wrong...McLaren would have had grounds to say they were awarded that position by the FIA and then had it taken back.

The FIA is not responsible for explaining every black and white rule to McLaren whenever McLaren is to lazy to look it up. The problem in Oz was not the FIA, it was McLaren doing something very stupid and then rather than rethinking it and correcting the error...the next week they compounded that error and buried themselves. Both Lewis and McLaren have nobody to blame but themselves....no matter how hard their loyal fans try to scapegoat the FIA or Trulli or anyone else.

I just said Mclaren should know the rules - however i said there should be somone avalible to enforce them.

I mean in spa it seamed Mclaren obayed the rules and whiting said it was ok but theys still got duck

The FIA should have somone there to say Yes thats ok or no thats not okay give back the place.

Like a referee - whiting is no good beacause hes SAFTY and not rules

[billindenver]

Bill i think you know my stance on the incident but to the members who you want to try and convert to your way of thinking you come across as rude, arrogant and always on McLarens case so how can anyone distinguish your accusations of a blind fans view of who's at fault as null to someone like you who seems to hate McLaren/Lewis with a passion equal to those who love them?
it seems the views are polar and the real view of events would be somewhere in the middle!

I will make one correction, I do not hate Mclaren. A few years back they were my team, but they are not managed like they used to be and I do in fact dislike Hamilton. I guess that may not be completely accurate in that I don't dislike HIM per se, but I dislike how he acts, how he drives and what he says. Ah hell, yeah...I guess I just dislike him as a whole. I leave the possibility that he will mature though. I very much disliked the early Schumi, but as he matured I disliked him less and less. He did fall back into his old tricks from time to time though....like parking his car in the middle of quali. If Hamilton lasts long enough in F1 for him to mature...I may dislike him less in the future. Getting a real manager would do him a lot of good in my eyes. I think part of his problem is the lack of experienced professional guidance.

[Bovvaboy]

I will make one correction, I do not hate Mclaren. A few years back they were my team, but they are not managed like they used to be and I do in fact dislike Hamilton. I guess that may not be completely accurate in that I don't dislike HIM per se, but I dislike how he acts, how he drives and what he says. Ah hell, yeah...I guess I just dislike him as a whole. I leave the possibility that he will mature though. I very much disliked the early Schumi, but as he matured I disliked him less and less. He did fall back into his old tricks from time to time though....like parking his car in the middle of quali. If Hamilton lasts long enough in F1 for him to mature...I may dislike him less in the future. Getting a real manager would do him a lot of good in my eyes. I think part of his problem is the lack of experienced professional guidance.

I agree. Hamilton is awesome but just lacking a little maturity and experience. People need to stop taking this comment as negative but rather as an unbiased look at his situation. He is a young man that has had lots of pressure and fame and just needs some good professional management.

Also saying anything negative about Mclaren seems to rile people up on this thread. Why cant people see that McLarens problems are at least partially brought on themselves? When you point to some examples it is always turned around and the FIA are the blame! Sure all teams make mistakes but McLaren have made some awful ones and the ramifications are compounding to a point where there reputation is in tatters. Mclarens history has created some die-hard fans and that is testament to their proud racing history but lately they are having an absolute shocker! I just wish some people could take their blinkers off and see the situation for what it is. All the rubbish that is happening is playing into their competitors hands as they are unfocused and it must be effecting team morale.