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[SAS88]

I think he has been rather fortunate, not that he is a bad driver, he is skilled, calm, and persevering...but his successes has been largely to do with other people's bad luck, hopefully this will change.

No, his success has been due to driving brilliantly in a good car. It's the same with pretty much every front runner ever, including that guy in your avatar.

Rubbish, MS has demonstrated on numerous occasions his ability to pull himself and Ferrari out of losses, he has been consistent, innovative (albeit controversially), and performed well under pressure many, many times.

I am not saying MS didn't have a good car, but what has Button done that has been so brilliant over the years, except on a few occasions which every driver has managed to do at some point or another?

Comparing MS and Button is just redundant, this does not mean Button can't achieve the same level one day, but at this point basking in his 2 win glory and then drawing parallels to MS is just really far-fetched.

Bad luck, ignorance, too much sleep-time, call it what you will, but Button's success is largely to do with the misfortunes of the big racing groups, testified clearly by the hype with all the technical issues.

Button has finished in the podium standings at the end of the season once in his career (as many drivers have), and has never finished higher than 6th apart from that. This is really not all that much to hype something up on, nice try though.

[Jensonb]

I think he has been rather fortunate, not that he is a bad driver, he is skilled, calm, and persevering...but his successes has been largely to do with other people's bad luck, hopefully this will change.

No, his success has been due to driving brilliantly in a good car. It's the same with pretty much every front runner ever, including that guy in your avatar.

Rubbish, MS has demonstrated on numerous occasions his ability to pull himself and Ferrari out of losses, he has been consistent, innovative (albeit controversially), and performed well under pressure many, many times.

I am not saying MS didn't have a good car, but what has Button done that has been so brilliant over the years, except on a few occasions which every driver has managed to do at some point or another?

Comparing MS and Button is just redundant, this does not mean Button can't achieve the same level one day, but at this point basking in his 2 win glory and then drawing parallels to MS is just really far-fetched.

Bad luck, ignorance, too much sleep-time, call it what you will, but Button's success is largely to do with the misfortunes of the big racing groups, testified clearly by the hype with all the technical issues.

Button has finished in the podium standings at the end of the season once in his career (as many drivers have), and has never finished higher than 6th apart from that. This is really not all that much to hype something up on, nice try though.

I didn't draw comparisons between Button's skill and Schumi's actually, but thanks for that reaction, it proves my assumption about why you were so quick to question Jenson's pace.

[SAS88]

I think he has been rather fortunate, not that he is a bad driver, he is skilled, calm, and persevering...but his successes has been largely to do with other people's bad luck, hopefully this will change.

No, his success has been due to driving brilliantly in a good car. It's the same with pretty much every front runner ever, including that guy in your avatar.

Rubbish, MS has demonstrated on numerous occasions his ability to pull himself and Ferrari out of losses, he has been consistent, innovative (albeit controversially), and performed well under pressure many, many times.

I am not saying MS didn't have a good car, but what has Button done that has been so brilliant over the years, except on a few occasions which every driver has managed to do at some point or another?

Comparing MS and Button is just redundant, this does not mean Button can't achieve the same level one day, but at this point basking in his 2 win glory and then drawing parallels to MS is just really far-fetched.

Bad luck, ignorance, too much sleep-time, call it what you will, but Button's success is largely to do with the misfortunes of the big racing groups, testified clearly by the hype with all the technical issues.

Button has finished in the podium standings at the end of the season once in his career (as many drivers have), and has never finished higher than 6th apart from that. This is really not all that much to hype something up on, nice try though.

I didn't draw comparisons between Button's skill and Schumi's actually, but thanks for that reaction, it proves my assumption about why you were so quick to question Jenson's pace.

"Driving brilliantly" - and then immediately linking it to the guy in my avatar. I hardly think anyone would call driving behind a safety car, and then winning a race because half the drivers were having technical issues something to gloat about. Unless you wish to imply that none of the major teams were having any issues whatsoever?

Ferrari screwed up big time, McLaren is having definite problems, all of these "problems" mean "problems" for the drivers. Button did not have many of these problems, I don't blame him for anything, however it still remains, it's the bad luck of the other teams that lead to his success. Check the forums closely for these "problems", the discussions are in abundance.

Cheers

[texasmr2]

Button did not have many of these problems, I don't blame him for anything, however it still remains, it's the bad luck of the other teams that lead to his success. Check the forums closely for these "problems", the discussions are in abundance.

Cheers

You have truely 'gone fishing' because Buttons success is clearly due to having a superior package, does qualifying mean nothing to you?

[Jensonb]

"Driving brilliantly" - and then immediately linking it to the guy in my avatar. I hardly think anyone would call driving behind a safety car, and then winning a race because half the drivers were having technical issues something to gloat about. Unless you wish to imply that none of the major teams were having any issues whatsoever?

Ferrari screwed up big time, McLaren is having definite problems, all of these "problems" mean "problems" for the drivers. Button did not have many of these problems, I don't blame him for anything, however it still remains, it's the bad luck of the other teams that lead to his success. Check the forums closely for these "problems", the discussions are in abundance.

Cheers

Well considering the fact he was the fastest man on track at all phases excepting when everyone but Glock was on Wets (And he as the fastest on those), yes, I do call that brilliant driving. The comparison to Schumi was merely to demonstrate that people in good cars go quickly, The Brawn is the best car. The "major teams" have designed comparatively poor cars and are making poor decisions, Brawn has a good car and are making good decisions. That's not luck, it's superiority.

Don't talk down to me, I'm perfectly aware of the mistakes the likes of Ferrari and Macca have made. But them having made mistakes and Jenson and the team he is driving for having not done so does not make Jenson's pace the result of other's lack of fortune, it makes it the result of them doing a good job. Get over it, Brawn GP is the class of the field.

[SAS88]

Button did not have many of these problems, I don't blame him for anything, however it still remains, it's the bad luck of the other teams that lead to his success. Check the forums closely for these "problems", the discussions are in abundance.

Cheers

You have truely 'gone fishing' because Buttons success is clearly due to having a superior package, does qualifying mean nothing to you?

Qualifying, practice sessions, racing, tap-dancing. The big teams have had problems, I am new to hearing about this KERS system, but from what I've heard so far, Brawn has been quick to capitalize in the "grey" areas of the regulations. Which means the car has been a good package, (I never denied this), however Raikkonen, Massa, Hamilton etc. have been left in the cold, (bad luck) due to the way their cars were ultimately designed.

Hence by deductive logic it's clear that Button's success has been over other people's bad luck. (Not very hard to follow)

[texasmr2]

Button did not have many of these problems, I don't blame him for anything, however it still remains, it's the bad luck of the other teams that lead to his success. Check the forums closely for these "problems", the discussions are in abundance.

Cheers

You have truely 'gone fishing' because Buttons success is clearly due to having a superior package, does qualifying mean nothing to you?

Qualifying, practice sessions, racing, tap-dancing. The big teams have had problems, I am new to hearing about this KERS system, but from what I've heard so far, Brawn has been quick to capitalize in the "grey" areas of the regulations. Which means the car has been a good package, (I never denied this), however Raikkonen, Massa, Hamilton etc. have been left in the cold, (bad luck) due to the way their cars were ultimately designed.

Hence by deductive logic it's clear that Button's success has been over other people's bad luck. (Not very hard to follow)

Believe what you want yet I still disagree.

[SAS88]

"Driving brilliantly" - and then immediately linking it to the guy in my avatar. I hardly think anyone would call driving behind a safety car, and then winning a race because half the drivers were having technical issues something to gloat about. Unless you wish to imply that none of the major teams were having any issues whatsoever?

Ferrari screwed up big time, McLaren is having definite problems, all of these "problems" mean "problems" for the drivers. Button did not have many of these problems, I don't blame him for anything, however it still remains, it's the bad luck of the other teams that lead to his success. Check the forums closely for these "problems", the discussions are in abundance.

Cheers

Well considering the fact he was the fastest man on track at all phases excepting when everyone but Glock was on Wets (And he as the fastest on those), yes, I do call that brilliant driving. The comparison to Schumi was merely to demonstrate that people in good cars go quickly, The Brawn is the best car. The "major teams" have designed comparatively poor cars and are making poor decisions, Brawn has a good car and are making good decisions. That's not luck, it's superiority.

Don't talk down to me, I'm perfectly aware of the mistakes the likes of Ferrari and Macca have made. But them having made mistakes and Jenson and the team he is driving for having not done so does not make Jenson's pace the result of other's lack of fortune, it makes it the result of them doing a good job. Get over it, Brawn GP is the class of the field.

Never did I say otherwise, my whole point was that the DRIVERS of the other teams have been disadvantaged, I don't hold them liable since they don't actually design the cars, neither does Button. Button drives what he's given and he has been fortunate that his team has been EXCELLENT.

He has hence been fortunate that the other drivers have been UNLUCKY, hence his SUCCESS comes from that.

Put it this way, a basic argument:

Button has been FORTUNATE in being in a good team (crew, management, cars)
Raikkonen has been UNFORTUNATE in being in the opposite
Thus Button WINS the race, you are now asserting this win was because of his "driving" skills, which is false. (See the blue bit)

It's faulty logic. On top of that you go on endlessly about the Brawn GP package, never did I say it was crap, they have a perfect system in place.

[SAS88]

Button did not have many of these problems, I don't blame him for anything, however it still remains, it's the bad luck of the other teams that lead to his success. Check the forums closely for these "problems", the discussions are in abundance.

Cheers

You have truely 'gone fishing' because Buttons success is clearly due to having a superior package, does qualifying mean nothing to you?

Qualifying, practice sessions, racing, tap-dancing. The big teams have had problems, I am new to hearing about this KERS system, but from what I've heard so far, Brawn has been quick to capitalize in the "grey" areas of the regulations. Which means the car has been a good package, (I never denied this), however Raikkonen, Massa, Hamilton etc. have been left in the cold, (bad luck) due to the way their cars were ultimately designed.

Hence by deductive logic it's clear that Button's success has been over other people's bad luck. (Not very hard to follow)

Believe what you want yet I still disagree.

That's fine with me...

[texasmr2]

Button did not have many of these problems, I don't blame him for anything, however it still remains, it's the bad luck of the other teams that lead to his success. Check the forums closely for these "problems", the discussions are in abundance.

Cheers

You have truely 'gone fishing' because Buttons success is clearly due to having a superior package, does qualifying mean nothing to you?

Qualifying, practice sessions, racing, tap-dancing. The big teams have had problems, I am new to hearing about this KERS system, but from what I've heard so far, Brawn has been quick to capitalize in the "grey" areas of the regulations. Which means the car has been a good package, (I never denied this), however Raikkonen, Massa, Hamilton etc. have been left in the cold, (bad luck) due to the way their cars were ultimately designed.

Hence by deductive logic it's clear that Button's success has been over other people's bad luck. (Not very hard to follow)

Believe what you want yet I still disagree.

That's fine with me...

Me also .

[Jensonb]

Button did not have many of these problems, I don't blame him for anything, however it still remains, it's the bad luck of the other teams that lead to his success. Check the forums closely for these "problems", the discussions are in abundance.

Cheers

You have truely 'gone fishing' because Buttons success is clearly due to having a superior package, does qualifying mean nothing to you?

Qualifying, practice sessions, racing, tap-dancing. The big teams have had problems, I am new to hearing about this KERS system, but from what I've heard so far, Brawn has been quick to capitalize in the "grey" areas of the regulations. Which means the car has been a good package, (I never denied this), however Raikkonen, Massa, Hamilton etc. have been left in the cold, (bad luck) due to the way their cars were ultimately designed.

Hence by deductive logic it's clear that Button's success has been over other people's bad luck. (Not very hard to follow)

Right...So Jenson being in a poor car the past two years was, what? Karma? Your logic makes no sense, by your own reasoning, Kimi and Lewis's success was the result of Jenson's misfortune over the past two years too.

The drivers in the quick cars do well, that's the point of racing. When a team is doing a poor job, it doesn't matter who they are, their drivers won't do well. When a team does a good job, their drivers go well. "Other's misfortune" is a stupid way of looking at it, it's the quick team doing well, not the other teams doing poorly - again, by that reasoning, everyone who's ever won has done so due to "other's misfortune".

As for "grey areas", Brawn tabled a revision which would close those loopholes and the other teams said nah. It's their own fault - besides which, take a look at the leading edge of Ferrari's sidepods for some more grey areas - and they're not that quick themselves.

Never did I say otherwise, my whole point was that the DRIVERS of the other teams have been disadvantaged, I don't hold them liable since they don't actually design the cars, neither does Button. Button drives what he's given and he has been fortunate that his team has been EXCELLENT.

He has hence been fortunate that the other drivers have been UNLUCKY, hence his SUCCESS comes from that.

Put it this way, a basic argument:

Button has been FORTUNATE in being in a good team (crew, management, cars)
Raikkonen has been UNFORTUNATE in being in the opposite
Thus Button WINS the race, you are now asserting this win was because of his "driving" skills, which is false. (See the blue bit)

It's faulty logic. On top of that you go on endlessly about the Brawn GP package, never did I say it was crap, they have a perfect system in place.

Your logic is pathetically weak as I outlined above. Jenson is driving brilliantly in a good car, just as Kimi was driving brilliantly in a good car two years ago. There are pleny of rapid drivers on the grid outside of the Scuderia and McLaren - Vettel, Barrichello, Kubica, Heidfeld, Rosberg, Trulli...Perhaps you've heard of them? There are always teams doing poorly, that doesn't mean the drivers' who are doing well are doing so as a result of those teams' drivers misfortune, it means their team has doena better job.

[SAS88]

Button did not have many of these problems, I don't blame him for anything, however it still remains, it's the bad luck of the other teams that lead to his success. Check the forums closely for these "problems", the discussions are in abundance.

Cheers

You have truely 'gone fishing' because Buttons success is clearly due to having a superior package, does qualifying mean nothing to you?

Qualifying, practice sessions, racing, tap-dancing. The big teams have had problems, I am new to hearing about this KERS system, but from what I've heard so far, Brawn has been quick to capitalize in the "grey" areas of the regulations. Which means the car has been a good package, (I never denied this), however Raikkonen, Massa, Hamilton etc. have been left in the cold, (bad luck) due to the way their cars were ultimately designed.

Hence by deductive logic it's clear that Button's success has been over other people's bad luck. (Not very hard to follow)

Right...So Jenson being in a poor car the past two years was, what? Karma? Your logic makes no sense, by your own reasoning, Kimi and Lewis's success was the result of Jenson's misfortune over the past two years too.

The drivers in the quick cars do well, that's the point of racing. When a team is doing a poor job, it doesn't matter who they are, their drivers won't do well. When a team does a good job, their drivers go well. "Other's misfortune" is a stupid way of looking at it, it's the quick team doing well, not the other teams doing poorly - again, by that reasoning, everyone who's ever won has done so due to "other's misfortune".

As for "grey areas", Brawn tabled a revision which would close those loopholes and the other teams said nah. It's their own fault - besides which, take a look at the leading edge of Ferrari's sidepods for some more grey areas - and they're not that quick themselves.

Never did I say otherwise, my whole point was that the DRIVERS of the other teams have been disadvantaged, I don't hold them liable since they don't actually design the cars, neither does Button. Button drives what he's given and he has been fortunate that his team has been EXCELLENT.

He has hence been fortunate that the other drivers have been UNLUCKY, hence his SUCCESS comes from that.

Put it this way, a basic argument:

Button has been FORTUNATE in being in a good team (crew, management, cars)
Raikkonen has been UNFORTUNATE in being in the opposite
Thus Button WINS the race, you are now asserting this win was because of his "driving" skills, which is false. (See the blue bit)

It's faulty logic. On top of that you go on endlessly about the Brawn GP package, never did I say it was crap, they have a perfect system in place.

Your logic is pathetically weak as I outlined above. Jenson is driving brilliantly in a good car, just as Kimi was driving brilliantly in a good car two years ago. There are pleny of rapid drivers on the grid outside of the Scuderia and McLaren - Vettel, Barrichello, Kubica, Heidfeld, Rosberg, Trulli...Perhaps you've heard of them? There are always teams doing poorly, that doesn't mean the drivers' who are doing well are doing so as a result of those teams' drivers misfortune, it means their team has doena better job.

Maybe I should have been more clear, these "successes" I'm talking about of Jenson are in reference to this season. He has won two races this season, but not convincingly, it has been amidst chaos and confusion for the other drivers with all kinds of technical issues.

Quoting you: "The drivers in the quick cars do well, that's the point of racing. When a team is doing a poor job, it doesn't matter who they are, their drivers won't do well." - Isn't that exactly what has happened this season? Button's success, like I said before, for these two wins, has been because of bad luck for the other drivers. Could he have won still if Ferrari didn't screw up, and the KERS systems were all in order, and no one was getting cardiac arrests over system designs in other cars? Maybe, but we won't know.

You seem to be brushing aside all these major issues, the fact is, they are real, and this time it doesn't involve one team, but several, over a new development that has recently been introduced. It's a factor that needs to be considered.

But whatever, we don't seem to be getting anywhere with this.

[Jensonb]

Maybe I should have been more clear, these "successes" I'm talking about of Jenson are in reference to this season. He has won two races this season, but not convincingly, it has been amidst chaos and confusion for the other drivers with all kinds of technical issues.

Quoting you: "The drivers in the quick cars do well, that's the point of racing. When a team is doing a poor job, it doesn't matter who they are, their drivers won't do well." - Isn't that exactly what has happened this season? Button's success, like I said before, for these two wins, has been because of bad luck for the other drivers. Could he have won still if Ferrari didn't screw up, and the KERS systems were all in order, and no one was getting cardiac arrests over system designs in other cars? Maybe, but we won't know.

You seem to be brushing aside all these major issues, the fact is, they are real, and this time it doesn't involve one team, but several, over a new development that has recently been introduced. It's a factor that needs to be considered.

But whatever, we don't seem to be getting anywhere with this.

I am saying that by that same logic, Jenson would have been fighting against Kimi and Hamilton had it not been for HONDA's misfortune in the last two seasons, what part of that do you not understand? Your argument makes no sense. Yes, things are different this year, that doesn't change the fact that Ferrari and McLaren's problems are the result of them not doing good jobs. Even if they had done, Brawn still would have done, which would mean Jenson would still be fighting at the front. You can't devalue a performance by saying "if X team was good, you wouldn't be so far ahead". Why? Because it's bleeding obvious. That's always the case.

[texasmr2]

Maybe I should have been more clear, these "successes" I'm talking about of Jenson are in reference to this season. He has won two races this season, but not convincingly, it has been amidst chaos and confusion for the other drivers with all kinds of technical issues.

Was he not convincingly on pole both races? Was he not clearly the fastest car ontrack during these races? Your out of excuses mate, I have been watching F1 for around 30yr's and quite frankly I have learned a few thing's such as what to look for and what to dismiss. Oh I almost forgot to say that I am a Ferrari guy yet I appreciate competition and can openly admit when my team is utter crap while praising another team for a job well done.

Brawns success could not have come at a better time for F1, shake and bake baby!!!

[stonemonkey]

shake and bake baby!!!

I hope that doesn't mean Button's gonna steal Ruben's woman and then ask him to be best man.

He has won two races this season, but not convincingly

What would convince you, lapping second place?