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[Denthúl]

Regarding Alonso, he got his punishment - he was made to fight a very cold battle alone for most of the year, then was sacked.

Well you say that.

And you say differently. The truth is, neither of you really know. Only McLaren and Alonso really know. So it's pointless either of you saying that you're right.

and why argue about something that happened two seasons ago , move on already!

People still argue about Adelaide '94 and Jerez '97. It's the same in any sport.

Regarding Alonso, he got his punishment - he was made to fight a very cold battle alone for most of the year, then was sacked.

Well you say that.

And you say differently. The truth is, neither of you really know. Only McLaren and Alonso really know. So it's pointless either of you saying that you're right.

As I've said, we don't know all of the facts, but we know enough to say neither party were innocent.

I do not disagree with that.

[EwanM]

And I've said both parties weren't innocent, so where is the problem?
You can't protect Mclaren, no matter how hard you try.
Just as I can't protect the likes of Alonso.

[McLaren Fan]

And I've said both parties weren't innocent, so where is the problem?
You can't protect Mclaren, no matter how hard you try.
Just as I can't protect the likes of Alonso.

Your post suggested Alonso was a poor, innocent victim of an oppressive McLaren regime.

[EwanM]

Not really, as my other posts suggest he was fully to blame for his part in the Spy Scandal, it damaged his integrity and I for one lost alot of trust for the man. And as I pointed out I do not think he should have spoken out today.

But as Denthul said, we don't know the true workings of the incident - we only know (as you have pointed out) that neither party were innocent.

I do feel Mclaren open themselves up for criticism by the way they run their team.

[Gilles 27]

@McLaren Fan

My point was that I believe that Pedro de la Rosa, Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso are men of integrity and also men who know a thing or two about Formula 1. When Fernando comes out and says McLaren have lied to the stewards before, I believe him as it is my suspicion that McLaren, as well as other teams do this on a regular basis. I also believe that he is well within his rights in coming out and saying negative things about McLaren, providing they are true (and in this case I personally believe they are) because of the unfair treatment that I believe he received while under their employment.

McLaren seem to have this strange habit of getting themselves into huge messes completely unnecessarily. McLaren deserve to be punished over this as they did over spygate purely because of the stupidity they have demonstrated in being caught. Other teams cheat and lie but they seem to be better at it.

[Bruno_Brazil]

Does anybody think that he was acting in this moment -
http://tazio.uol.com.br/f-1/textos/9304/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - in order to get people's mercy ?


He got mines.

[cap-dude]

I think theres no room for arguement here. McLaren clearly provided mis-leading evidence.

Though I certainly wouldn't blame this on Lewis, in fact I feel a litte sorry for the guy. The media have come down on him like a tonne of bricks.

But personally I think public radios in F1 have made all the difference. You have to think, if they'd been around in the old days, a lot of the punishments handed out would've been different perhaps. Teams will probably learn McLaren's mistake here and be a lot more cautious. I think the reality is that McLaren were just the first ones caught out. This could've been any team in my opinion.

[Gaz]

I think theres no room for arguement here. McLaren clearly provided mis-leading evidence.

Though I certainly wouldn't blame this on Lewis, in fact I feel a litte sorry for the guy. The media have come down on him like a tonne of bricks.

But personally I think public radios in F1 have made all the difference. You have to think, if they'd been around in the old days, a lot of the punishments handed out would've been different perhaps. Teams will probably learn McLaren's mistake here and be a lot more cautious. I think the reality is that McLaren were just the first ones caught out. This could've been any team in my opinion.

Yeh they withheald evidence that mislead the stewards like i said this happens in courts all the time.

The punishment does not fit the crime.

[racechick]

I only hope that if any racing situations like this arise again that Lewis can have the confidence in himself to be more assertive (and everyone calls him cocky!) and that the team can have confidence in him. If the team had listened to him none of this would have happened.

Yes. Lewis has been let down badly by his team here. What was that guy thinking telling him to lie! I know heat of the moment etc, but that was a grave error. I hated the thought that Lewis had done this because then I would have had to reconsider all I think about him. He is not arrogant and cocky. He was asked to do something that went against the grain by a senior employer, at a time when it was not possible to question. He made the wrong deciosion to comply and this will haunt him.I feel very sorry for him. Not for the points loss but because he has compromised his integrity.

[McLaren Fan]

I think theres no room for arguement here. McLaren clearly provided mis-leading evidence.

Though I certainly wouldn't blame this on Lewis, in fact I feel a litte sorry for the guy. The media have come down on him like a tonne of bricks.

But personally I think public radios in F1 have made all the difference. You have to think, if they'd been around in the old days, a lot of the punishments handed out would've been different perhaps. Teams will probably learn McLaren's mistake here and be a lot more cautious. I think the reality is that McLaren were just the first ones caught out. This could've been any team in my opinion.

Yeh they withheald evidence that mislead the stewards like i said this happens in courts all the time.

The punishment does not fit the crime.

There is a difference between withholding information and lying, and the former is not necessarily wrong. For instance, if the stewards asked Hamilton, "Did Trulli overtake you under the safety car?", and Hamilton only answered, "Yes", that would be fine. If the stewards asked him, "Did you signal for Trulli to pass you in any way", and Hamilton replied, "No", then that would be wrong. In terms of punishment, as I said before, I think things need to be put in perspective. The whole situation was brought about by the FIA's inadequate regulations and inability to clarify them there and there and Ryan has got a clean record. Then you have to look at previous instances of lies, withholding information etc. When you've done that, you really have to say there are two options: (i) disqualify Hamilton from the race (which has been done); or (ii) keep the race result and punish him with a fine, race ban etc. which is proportional to the offence. If this situation goes much further, it will be indicative of a witch hunt.

[McLaren Fan]

I only hope that if any racing situations like this arise again that Lewis can have the confidence in himself to be more assertive (and everyone calls him cocky!) and that the team can have confidence in him. If the team had listened to him none of this would have happened.

Yes. Lewis has been let down badly by his team here. What was that guy thinking telling him to lie! I know heat of the moment etc, but that was a grave error. I hated the thought that Lewis had done this because then I would have had to reconsider all I think about him. He is not arrogant and cocky. He was asked to do something that went against the grain by a senior employer, at a time when it was not possible to question. He made the wrong deciosion to comply and this will haunt him.I feel very sorry for him. Not for the points loss but because he has compromised his integrity.

Your only concern is to vindicate Hamilton. Never mind the fact that a couple of McLaren's longest-standing employees' balls are on the chopping block.

[stonemonkey]

I only hope that if any racing situations like this arise again that Lewis can have the confidence in himself to be more assertive (and everyone calls him cocky!) and that the team can have confidence in him. If the team had listened to him none of this would have happened.

Yes. Lewis has been let down badly by his team here. What was that guy thinking telling him to lie! I know heat of the moment etc, but that was a grave error. I hated the thought that Lewis had done this because then I would have had to reconsider all I think about him. He is not arrogant and cocky. He was asked to do something that went against the grain by a senior employer, at a time when it was not possible to question. He made the wrong deciosion to comply and this will haunt him.I feel very sorry for him. Not for the points loss but because he has compromised his integrity.

You know, that's not what I was talking about although it applies to that too. I was meaning during the incident on the track when Lewis said he didn't think he had to give the position back.

[racechick]

I only hope that if any racing situations like this arise again that Lewis can have the confidence in himself to be more assertive (and everyone calls him cocky!) and that the team can have confidence in him. If the team had listened to him none of this would have happened.

Yes. Lewis has been let down badly by his team here. What was that guy thinking telling him to lie! I know heat of the moment etc, but that was a grave error. I hated the thought that Lewis had done this because then I would have had to reconsider all I think about him. He is not arrogant and cocky. He was asked to do something that went against the grain by a senior employer, at a time when it was not possible to question. He made the wrong deciosion to comply and this will haunt him.I feel very sorry for him. Not for the points loss but because he has compromised his integrity.

You know, that's not what I was talking about although it applies to that too. I was meaning during the incident on the track when Lewis said he didn't think he had to give the position back.

Yes it applies to both situations.

[racechick]

I only hope that if any racing situations like this arise again that Lewis can have the confidence in himself to be more assertive (and everyone calls him cocky!) and that the team can have confidence in him. If the team had listened to him none of this would have happened.

Yes. Lewis has been let down badly by his team here. What was that guy thinking telling him to lie! I know heat of the moment etc, but that was a grave error. I hated the thought that Lewis had done this because then I would have had to reconsider all I think about him. He is not arrogant and cocky. He was asked to do something that went against the grain by a senior employer, at a time when it was not possible to question. He made the wrong deciosion to comply and this will haunt him.I feel very sorry for him. Not for the points loss but because he has compromised his integrity.

Your only concern is to vindicate Hamilton. Never mind the fact that a couple of McLaren's longest-standing employees' balls are on the chopping block.

No its not. Ive posted little during this because I couldnt be sure what had happened. If Lewis had taken that decision himself then I would have to have accepted it and that would have been devastating. I do feel sympathy for the McLaren Employee and I agree with you that McLaren will get hauled over the coals for this when other teams, certain ones in particular, have done worse with little fallout. I get a little annoyed with how quick so many people are ready to vilify lewis. Team more at fault here Im afraid.

[McLaren Fan]

All we've got is Hamilton's word, I'm afraid. McLaren usually attempt to deflect the blame away from their drivers, so why should this situation be any different? Whenever McLaren say it was not the driver's fault, I'd immediately be suspicious. The more I think about this, the more I think Ryan is taking the fall for Hamilton.