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By CevertF1
#433895
Hi all,

I'm just wondering something and I thought I'd ask here. Regarding Mercedes power units. Now I am most certainly not accusing them of anything here, I'm just wondering if in theory its possible.

Would it be possible for Mercedes to wind down the power of the units it gives to other teams? say like set them to 90% and the Mercedes F1 team itself use one at 100%? I'm not saying they are doing that, I just wonder if it would be possible to do that?
By Hammer278
#433901
If Merc are able to get away with something like this when Ferrari and Renault are too dumb to do it, all power to them.
User avatar
By racechick
#433902
I don't think they're allowed to do that Cevertf1, I think they have to provide exactly the same engines for the teams they supply as they use themselves. Where Mercedes gain is that they've developed the power train and the the fuel, and the chassis together.
By CevertF1
#433903
I don't think they're allowed to do that Cevertf1, I think they have to provide exactly the same engines for the teams they supply as they use themselves. Where Mercedes gain is that they've developed the power train and the the fuel, and the chassis together.


Thank you for the info. and no, I honestly don't accuse them of doing that, I just wondered if it was possible.
User avatar
By racechick
#433905
I don't think they're allowed to do that Cevertf1, I think they have to provide exactly the same engines for the teams they supply as they use themselves. Where Mercedes gain is that they've developed the power train and the the fuel, and the chassis together.


Thank you for the info. and no, I honestly don't accuse them of doing that, I just wondered if it was possible.


You're welcome :) I didn't read your question as an aquusation, just a genuine question.
#433906
A slightly different question might be, would or could Merc run their own engines with different settings than they give to their customers that gives better performance but may affect reliability? I'd imagine they'd want to give theur customers reliability but may be willing to take a calculated risk themselves, or tell customers that they can run with those settings but it's at their own risk and voids any guarantee. Could something like that be possible?
#433907
The technical regulations are located both at the FiA site and the F1.com site.

A Formula One car’s power unit consists of a 1.6-litre turbocharged V6 engine which operates in conjunction with an Energy Recovery System (ERS). The engine must have six cylinders in a 90-degree formation, with two inlet and two exhaust valves per cylinder and a single turbocharger. They are rev-limited to 15,000rpm, have a fuel flow limit of 100 kilograms/hour and produce around 600bhp. They must also have a single tailpipe exhaust.

The other part of the power unit - ERS - provides an additional 160bhp or so per lap via two clever motor generator units (MGU) that convert mechanical and heat energy to electrical energy and vice versa.

The first MGU (known as MGU-K, where the K stands for kinetic) converts kinetic energy generated under braking into electricity. Under acceleration 120kW of this electricity, which is stored in batteries in the Energy Store (ES), can then be used to power the MGU-K which is connected to the crankshaft of the engine and in turn helps propel the car.

The second MGU (known as MGU-H, where the H stands for heat), is connected to the turbocharger and converts heat energy from exhaust gases into electrical energy. The energy can then be used to power the MGU-K or be retained in the ES for subsequent use. In total, ERS has twice the power of the pre-2014 KERS (120kW compared to 60kW, a maximum of 4MJ per lap compared to 0.4MJ per lap) and provide it for nearly ten times as long (approximately 33 seconds per lap as opposed to six).

For safety, each car is fitted with ERS status lights which warn marshals and mechanics of the car’s electrical safety status when it is stopped or in the pits. If the car is safe, the lights - which are situated on the roll hoop and the rear tail lamp - will glow green; if not, they glow red. The lights must remain on for 15 minutes after the power unit has been switched off.

The overall weight of the power unit must be a minimum of 145kg. The ES must be installed wholly within the survival cell and must weigh between 20kg and 25kg.

The materials used in the manufacture of the engine and its components are strictly controlled by the regulations. The crankcase and cylinder block must be made of cast or wrought aluminium alloys - the use of composite materials is not allowed. The crankshaft and camshafts must be made from an iron-based alloy, pistons from an aluminium alloy and valves from alloys based on iron, nickel, cobalt or titanium.


Read this part, it's important as it pertains to the question.

The electrical and software systems of all cars are inspected by the FIA at the start of the season and the teams must notify them in advance of any subsequent changes. All teams must use the same FIA-specification Electronic Control Unit (ECU) for controlling power unit and gearbox.

All software must be registered with the FIA, who check all the programmable systems on the cars prior to each event to ensure that the correct software versions are being used. Electronic systems which can automatically detect the race start signal are forbidden.
#433950
What does the software that's to be registered with the FIA by the teams relate to?
#433951
Firstly because as a customer team they get the same piece of equipment the manufacturer gets when they purchase an engine. Secondly because with the engines comes a team of engineers to work with the customer team to optimize that engine for that team and their chosen strategies.

The ECU is universal and it's provided to all of the teams by McLaren. The are software versions that the manufactures updates throughout the season for their engines to gain performance, reliability etc and all of the mappings are visible/available and so there's nothing "held" back. Customer team even have the option of using older software if they prefer it and customer teams have the ability to request features be included in the software as well just like any customer buying any piece of software. The software is where differences would be and they would be easy to spot not like the illegal wings and illegal adjustment of suspension Red Bull used for three years without penalty.

It's one more reason that freezing in season development was voted on when creating the regulations, now you've got to ramp up the software development as well as engine development and incur those additional costs.

This of it as buying a video card if you're a computer system integrator with your own private line of PCs, the video card is the piece of hardware (engine) but the manufacturer also has to provide you the drivers and the drivers are inspected by the FiA and they're the same for everyone using that video card.
Last edited by What's Burning? on 02 Mar 15, 19:38, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By racechick
#433952
Very well explained WB! :clap: thanks for that!
#433953
Firstly because as a customer team they get the same piece of equipment the manufacturer gets when they purchase an engine. Secondly because with the engines comes a team of engineers to work with the customer team to optimize that engine for that team and their chosen strategies.

The ECU is universal and it's provided to all of the teams by McLaren. The are software versions that the manufactures updates throughout the season for their engines to gain performance, reliability etc and all of the mappings are visible/available and so there's nothing "held" back. Customer team even have the option of using older software if they prefer it and customer teams have the ability to request features be included in the software as well just like any customer buying any piece of software. The software is where differences would be and they would be easy to spot not like the illegal wings and illegal adjustment of suspension Red Bull used for three years without penalty.

It's one more reason that freezing in season development was voted on when creating the regulations, now you've got to ramp up the software development as well as engine development and incur those additional costs.

This of it as buying a video card if you're a computer system integrator with your own private line of PCs, the video card is the piece of hardware (engine) but the manufacturer also has to provide you the drivers and the drivers are inspected by the FiA and they're the same for everyone using that video card.


Interesting you compare it to a video card, Ive written a few 3d engines and had other programmers use them and provided documentation for all the functions, it's one thing having the documentation and understanding how to use it but to have written the engine and knowing exactly what and how it does everything below the abstraction layer having written it gives you a completely different understanding of it and how it can be used in different ways, this would apply even more so with the guys building and writing the drivers for video cards.
#433954
I don't deny that's how it is, but it isn't an exclusive problem to Mercedes. Then the software that's written has to be loaded into a third party component built and provided to the teams by McLaren. There's an exclusive advantage there for them with Honda. That's why the manufacturer has to supply the code and use what's on the ECU, and the same mappings are available to them to choose from.

Keeping with the video card format, regardless of the behind the scenes optimization, the same drivers are provided to all customer teams. All they do it choose how to use them for their given goals and weekend strategies. The biggest advantage me manufacturers have is being able to work in concert with their chassis team to better package the engine. Comparing last year's McLaren to this year's, it's clear to see how much they were able to thin down the car because of the direct input they got from Honda which is what they didn't get from Mercedes.

You can buy the best engine, but you still have to build their car. It's not as if last year, Williams got one type of Mercedes engine, and McLaren got another type. It's all the same hardware and software. The chassis integration is the X factor.

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