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[7UpJordan]

Carrying on from my post just now in the Malaysian GP Qualifying thread, so far in the first race and today's qualifying, Williams, Red Bull and Super Aguri have shown us that there is still hope for Privateer teams in F1 in the days of works teams, and why? Simple, they have all managed to outpace the Toyota, Renault and Honda works teams with ease.

I believe one of the factors behind this is mainly due to the relationship between the privateer team and their engine provider. Williams, Red Bull and Super Aguri are all using exactly the same engine provider as their works teams, but where the privateers usually exceed is building a car around the engine purpose built for it, whereas the works teams tend to concentrate on developing the engine.

For example, in the 1980's when Brabham were using BMW engines one time, Gordon Murray who was the technical director figured out in order to make the car run faster, the engine would require a new Crankshaft, so he approached BMW and requested the new part, then a spokesman came to him and said his new part would be ready for about mid-season, Murray of course was not happy and said straight to him "Do you want to win a race this season or not?", and sure enough, Brabham got their new crankshaft for the BMW engine. You'd probably never see that happening in the Toyota works team, hence why they are so stagnant. The difference is that the privateer teams know that they are under pressure to perform for their engine customers, and in order to get the results, they need the equipment to do the job.

[darwin dali]

but where the privateers usually exceed is building a car around the engine purpose built for it, whereas the works teams tend to concentrate on developing the engine.

This doesn't apply to Super Aguri as they use Honda's last year chassis.
Also, with a virtual freeze on engine development, this statement is not true anymore.

[Irv the Swerve]

Great post 7up, reading that brought back memories of the Stewart team and the work JS and his son did from scratch and in 99 when Ford acquired Cosworth and they designed a completly new engine, it paid off with JH getting that win and the team to a 4th place in the CT title. Ahead of Williams and Benetton.

Sometimes smaller teams may not be pushovers after all.

[madbrad]

I was for the last couple of years bemoaning the lack of possible works engine suppliers that results from an increasing number of manufacturers getting their own teams, leaving only customer engines available for the garagistes. William's trumping of Toyota, and to a lesser extent Aguri out lapping Honda, gives me hope. What it would take for Williams to become dominant again is for Toyota to realize that their team is a runaway train to loserville and that works engine supplying is the way to go, and fold up the team. Maybe in time there will be a gradual shift back that way for some manufacturers, or it could backfire; they may stop supplying engines too.

[7UpJordan]

I was for the last couple of years bemoaning the lack of possible works engine suppliers that results from an increasing number of manufacturers getting their own teams, leaving only customer engines available for the garagistes. William's trumping of Toyota, and to a lesser extent Aguri out lapping Honda, gives me hope. What it would take for Williams to become dominant again is for Toyota to realize that their team is a runaway train to loserville and that works engine supplying is the way to go, and fold up the team. Maybe in time there will be a gradual shift back that way for some manufacturers, or it could backfire; they may stop supplying engines too.

The same kind of thing happened to Renault in the mid 1980's when Lotus and Ligier - who were both using Renault engines along with Tyrrell - were both out-performing their works team and as a result, the works team pulled out at the end of 1985 and continued their supply to Lotus in 1986.

Also if Toyota had enough of Williams trouncing their works team and took away their engines, that would allow Williams to go and get a much better engine, perhaps re-kindle their relationship with Renault?

[madbrad]

We need more companies to be engine works suppliers and to dedicate massive resources to it like Mercedes does, and Renault and Honda did in the late 80s and early 90s. I sit and try to think of companies. Porsche? Fuji? GM? Ford(never say never)? Who else is big enough to produce a title winning engine?

[7UpJordan]

We need more companies to be engine works suppliers and to dedicate massive resources to it like Mercedes does, and Renault and Honda did in the late 80s and early 90s. I sit and try to think of companies. Porsche? Fuji? GM? Ford(never say never)? Who else is big enough to produce a title winning engine?

I think one reason for manufacturers taking over the Privateer teams ie. Renault taking over Benetton, BMW taking over Sauber, Honda taking over BAR is because of Ferrari's success over the recent years, prompting the engine suppliers to buy out the privateers thinking that being an engine works team will give them Ferrari style success. A bit far-fetched, but possible.

Alfa Romeo could have another go, they used to supply engines to Brabham in the 70's (anyone remember the BT46B aka. the Brabham fan car? ) before becoming a works team with a similar Marlboro livery to the McLarens.

Lotus still make cars, so perhaps they could become an engine developer or even better yet resurrect the F1 team.

Do Matra still exist? They used to make V12 engines for Ligier in the 70's and early 80's.

[darwin dali]

Volkswagen, Mazda (Ford), Saab (GM), Volvo (Ford), Hyundai, Kia (Hyundai), Holden (GM), Peugeot Citroën, Mitsubishi, Nissan (Renault), Subaru (Fuji) - most are already connected with each other, consolidation in manufacturers has been in full swing for years.

[7UpJordan]

Whilst I remember does anyone remember Hart engines? Ones which Toleman used all the way through until Benetton bought them out. Tyrrell also used a Hart engine that had been developed by Cosworth for 1990, the year Alesi was the star of the season (some also say it was Nannini).

[Irv the Swerve]

Whilst I remember does anyone remember Hart engines? Ones which Toleman used all the way through until Benetton bought them out. Tyrrell also used a Hart engine that had been developed by Cosworth for 1990, the year Alesi was the star of the season (some also say it was Nannini).

..And Jordan had them has well, in 93 and 94.Footwork/Arrows used them also.

[7UpJordan]

Whilst I remember does anyone remember Hart engines? Ones which Toleman used all the way through until Benetton bought them out. Tyrrell also used a Hart engine that had been developed by Cosworth for 1990, the year Alesi was the star of the season (some also say it was Nannini).

..And Jordan had them has well, in 93 and 94.Footwork/Arrows used them also.

Jordan did well with the engines, even when they had De Cesaris driving for them during Irvine's ban (of course by then the De Crasheris days were long gone... before he caused Chaos at the start at Hockenheim). The 1990 Tyrrell wasn't the greatest car, but Alesi made it look like a McLaren, and people were tipping Toleman to challenge McLaren in 1985 before they had to delay their entry for 1985 due to not being able to secure a deal with a tyre supplier!

[Irv the Swerve]

(some also say it was Nannini).

He is making a return to racing with the GP Masters. It will be the first time he would have driven a racing car in more a decade after FIA GT.

Sorry for going of the subject..

[7UpJordan]

(some also say it was Nannini).

He is making a return to racing with the GP Masters. It will be the first time he would have driven a racing car in more a decade after FIA GT.

Sorry for going of the subject..

No worries, it's a shame how Nannini's F1 career was brought to such a premature end, if that accident never happened and he was still in a Benetton seat in 1991, Schumacher will have probably ended up staying at Jordan, or then again Gachot might have not had that altercation with the London cabbie, but even so Schumi will have found a way into F1 somehow, probably the same way Wendlinger did by driving the last 2 races of 1991 with Leyton House as Wendinger was Schumacher's teammate with Frentzen for the Mercedez Junior sportscar team.

[madbrad]

Volkswagen, Mazda (Ford), Saab (GM), Volvo (Ford), Hyundai, Kia (Hyundai), Holden (GM), Peugeot Citroën, Mitsubishi, Nissan (Renault), Subaru (Fuji) - most are already connected with each other, consolidation in manufacturers has been in full swing for years.

That's why I didn't mention any of those. Any company related to Ford is ruled out as long as Ford is out, Nissan is taken care of by Renault, Fiat is taken care of by Ferarri, Chrysler or Dodge is taken care of by Mercedes, Honda is in, Toyota is in, Volkwagen seems doable, that would take care of Audi and Bugatti though, GM seems doable with whatever brand they choose, Lotus isn't in my mind a viable engine supplier but rather a team that gets its engines from somebody else, Fuji seems the last big Japanese company who is not in F1 yet, Porsche seems doable although they are small,
and the following are in my mind too small to be successful(remembering I'm talking about works engine supply to garagistes):
Lamborghini, Peugeot, Citroen, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Hyundai(they're huge but car wise they're not capable of investing heavily in F1) Mitsubishi, Alfa, DeTomaso, Proton, Lancia, Skoda, Lada, Dacia, Olga, Innocenti, Vespa, Sears, Saleen, Lotus, Kia, Trabant, Simca, Cheri, Brilliant, Rover, MG, Matra, Tatra, Morgan, etc, I can't think of all the world's carmakers but they're all too small. This is not to say that any of those companies, as well as specialist craftsmen like Hart and Judd etc, couldnt supply engines on a customer basis, but those arrangements rarely win races let alone titles.

You know who's big enough to do it? Walmart.

[darwin dali]

Or UPS