FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

Discuss the sport you love with other motorsport fans

How long have you been following F1?

1-5yrs
25
31%
5-10yrs
7
9%
10-15yrs
16
20%
15-20yrs
15
19%
20-25yrs
6
8%
25-30yrs
3
4%
more than 30yrs
8
10%
#238693
not long at all, but i dont see why that should be held against me, when there isnt a race on im reading about races of the past etc, which i think more pepople should do as they might realise that prost>senna :yes::D


Nothings being held against you, my meaning was that firsthand experience means more than reading or whatching reruns or short clips. How many times do you hear "Oh dude I read about that and it was bogus" and then you can say "Well frankly I witnessed it firsthand and your just a tad off" or "this is really what/how it happened". :wink:



No i agree, and in thirty years if F1s still going i wouldnt and dont plan to hold it against those who have only watched since 2025 when mr.roboto burst on the sscene driving the ferrari cyborg-4550. But still i find it hard to take that Prost is mentioned only really as a good driver and one of the 80's greats, he was amazing! and from what ive read, even through the Senna biased stuff, Prost takes the best ever for me. I mean in 1988 he got more points then Senna but the points system only classified your best 11 results, in which Senna had more wins.
#238696
not long at all, but i dont see why that should be held against me, when there isnt a race on im reading about races of the past etc, which i think more pepople should do as they might realise that prost>senna :yes::D


Nothings being held against you, my meaning was that firsthand experience means more than reading or whatching reruns or short clips. How many times do you hear "Oh dude I read about that and it was bogus" and then you can say "Well frankly I witnessed it firsthand and your just a tad off" or "this is really what/how it happened". :wink:



No i agree, and in thirty years if F1s still going i wouldnt and dont plan to hold it against those who have only watched since 2025 when mr.roboto burst on the sscene driving the ferrari cyborg-4550. But still i find it hard to take that Prost is mentioned only really as a good driver and one of the 80's greats, he was amazing! and from what ive read, even through the Senna biased stuff, Prost takes the best ever for me. I mean in 1988 he got more points then Senna but the points system only classified your best 11 results, in which Senna had more wins.


Having watched them race at the time, I don't think the two are even comparable so it depends on what you are looking for to decide on what you class as criteria to be the best.

If you look for pure intelligence and the ability to plan and make contingencies, strategy, the ability to look after a car whilst still being faster than 95% of the field most of the time then Prost is your man.

If on the other hand you're looking for pure out and out speed and driving on instinct with the ability to not just be quick, but to utterly dominate everyone on his day to the ridiculous extent (pole by over 2 seconds to second place??), then it is unquestionably Senna - that's not even something that can be debated.

I love watching Prost drive and still watch his every race in the Andros Trophee - interestingly enough he could be this weekend about to fall foul of the same situation as in '88 with Senna. He's currently leading the championship by 3 points from Dayraut in second place, but at the end of the season for the championship, each driver's worst weekend (2 races!) are written off. Prost has been consistently good, so Dayraut's worst is of course worse than Prosts meaning even though Prost leads the championship technically now, he will be behind after the weekend unless he wins at least one of the races... history repeats itself....
#238698
not long at all, but i dont see why that should be held against me, when there isnt a race on im reading about races of the past etc, which i think more pepople should do as they might realise that prost>senna :yes::D


Nothings being held against you, my meaning was that firsthand experience means more than reading or whatching reruns or short clips. How many times do you hear "Oh dude I read about that and it was bogus" and then you can say "Well frankly I witnessed it firsthand and your just a tad off" or "this is really what/how it happened". :wink:



No i agree, and in thirty years if F1s still going i wouldnt and dont plan to hold it against those who have only watched since 2025 when mr.roboto burst on the sscene driving the ferrari cyborg-4550. But still i find it hard to take that Prost is mentioned only really as a good driver and one of the 80's greats, he was amazing! and from what ive read, even through the Senna biased stuff, Prost takes the best ever for me. I mean in 1988 he got more points then Senna but the points system only classified your best 11 results, in which Senna had more wins.


Having watched them race at the time, I don't think the two are even comparable so it depends on what you are looking for to decide on what you class as criteria to be the best.

If you look for pure intelligence and the ability to plan and make contingencies, strategy, the ability to look after a car whilst still being faster than 95% of the field most of the time then Prost is your man.

If on the other hand you're looking for pure out and out speed and driving on instinct with the ability to not just be quick, but to utterly dominate everyone on his day to the ridiculous extent (pole by over 2 seconds to second place??), then it is unquestionably Senna - that's not even something that can be debated.

I love watching Prost drive and still watch his every race in the Andros Trophee - interestingly enough he could be this weekend about to fall foul of the same situation as in '88 with Senna. He's currently leading the championship by 3 points from Dayraut in second place, but at the end of the season for the championship, each driver's worst weekend (2 races!) are written off. Prost has been consistently good, so Dayraut's worst is of course worse than Prosts meaning even though Prost leads the championship technically now, he will be behind after the weekend unless he wins at least one of the races... history repeats itself....



totally comparable, correct me if im wrong but was the same race Senna qualified in monaco by over a second the same one he crashed out of despite not even racing anyone?

And tell me when Senna overtook 5 cars on one lap on wet donington in 1993, why was Senna starting that far back in the first place.


People should stop assuming Senna got pole by over a second in every race he competed in, or that he was the ultimate gentleman driver, he was dirty as schumacher is, and he was beaten to first place numerous times by prost.

Now i dont hate Senna, i just dont rate him above Prost, every other driver ever yes, but not prost. All too often the best drivers ever are the most aggressive ones that get fans on their speed (senna,hamilton,alonso,schumacher,vettel,mansell and so on) but Prost came in and had the cheek to win races through pure genius thinking and smooth style. Something nobody has since emulated, Jenson is on the same track but nowhere close. And in the season of 88 when Senna won the title over Prost, Prost actually had more points, the stupid system only counted the best results.

I respect that you saw these two racing for yourself, but the evidence isnt destroyed, i have found enough of it to form a decent enough opinion on the matter, if Senna hadnt been killed......well hed have have as less status as he does.
#238699
not long at all, but i dont see why that should be held against me, when there isnt a race on im reading about races of the past etc, which i think more pepople should do as they might realise that prost>senna :yes::D


Nothings being held against you, my meaning was that firsthand experience means more than reading or whatching reruns or short clips. How many times do you hear "Oh dude I read about that and it was bogus" and then you can say "Well frankly I witnessed it firsthand and your just a tad off" or "this is really what/how it happened". :wink:



No i agree, and in thirty years if F1s still going i wouldnt and dont plan to hold it against those who have only watched since 2025 when mr.roboto burst on the sscene driving the ferrari cyborg-4550. But still i find it hard to take that Prost is mentioned only really as a good driver and one of the 80's greats, he was amazing! and from what ive read, even through the Senna biased stuff, Prost takes the best ever for me. I mean in 1988 he got more points then Senna but the points system only classified your best 11 results, in which Senna had more wins.


Having watched them race at the time, I don't think the two are even comparable so it depends on what you are looking for to decide on what you class as criteria to be the best.

If you look for pure intelligence and the ability to plan and make contingencies, strategy, the ability to look after a car whilst still being faster than 95% of the field most of the time then Prost is your man.

If on the other hand you're looking for pure out and out speed and driving on instinct with the ability to not just be quick, but to utterly dominate everyone on his day to the ridiculous extent (pole by over 2 seconds to second place??), then it is unquestionably Senna - that's not even something that can be debated.

I love watching Prost drive and still watch his every race in the Andros Trophee - interestingly enough he could be this weekend about to fall foul of the same situation as in '88 with Senna. He's currently leading the championship by 3 points from Dayraut in second place, but at the end of the season for the championship, each driver's worst weekend (2 races!) are written off. Prost has been consistently good, so Dayraut's worst is of course worse than Prosts meaning even though Prost leads the championship technically now, he will be behind after the weekend unless he wins at least one of the races... history repeats itself....



totally comparable, correct me if im wrong but was the same race Senna qualified in monaco by over a second the same one he crashed out of despite not even racing anyone?

And tell me when Senna overtook 5 cars on one lap on wet donington in 1993, why was Senna starting that far back in the first place.


People should stop assuming Senna got pole by over a second in every race he competed in, or that he was the ultimate gentleman driver, he was dirty as schumacher is, and he was beaten to first place numerous times by prost.

Now i dont hate Senna, i just dont rate him above Prost, every other driver ever yes, but not prost. All too often the best drivers ever are the most aggressive ones that get fans on their speed (senna,hamilton,alonso,schumacher,vettel,mansell and so on) but Prost came in and had the cheek to win races through pure genius thinking and smooth style. Something nobody has since emulated, Jenson is on the same track but nowhere close. And in the season of 88 when Senna won the title over Prost, Prost actually had more points, the stupid system only counted the best results.

I respect that you saw these two racing for yourself, but the evidence isnt destroyed, i have found enough of it to form a decent enough opinion on the matter, if Senna hadnt been killed......well hed have have as less status as he does.


Here's the problem though with not having watched at the time. Senna already was looked on as a legend well before he died. Probably from around 1991 / 1992 even the British media and experts started to warm to him. By the start of 1994 it was a foregone conclusion in 99% of people's eyes that Senna would walk the title.

Ridiculous to cite the crash in Monaco, when he won something like 5 consecutive Monaco races after that.

I never said I disagreed that Prost was very quick - I said he was consistently faster than 95% of the field, and that was including racing against very fast drivers and cars in opposition.

Where did I say Senna was a gentleman driver? I know you didn't specifically say it to me, but in your post that is what is inferred. I know full well Senna was super-aggressive at times, and for likely around 5 years pretty much hated by the British media in particular, but that's not what made him quick. Senna was quick in all conditions, that's the thing - he was fast in dry, wet, tight slow tracks, fast sweeping tracks, even through traffic.

Again, aside from the fact they were team-mates, their driving styles are simply not comparable. They're both multiple world champions, so obviously both two of the best ever, but their driving styles being totally different means that it does depend on what you are looking for in a racer as I originally said.

Of course it's true to say that Prost scored more points than Senna - but all drivers on the grid started the season knowing full well how the championship was decided. Who's to say that is the system was based purely on points that Senna might not have eased off a bit in a couple of races and his car may have lasted the distance to pick up more points? Who's to say he didn't just go for it hell for leather because he knew that only Wins and podiums would cut it? Nobody that's who, we don't know and we never will. All we know is that under the conditions at the time, Senna was champion that season. Nothing can change that.

Why was Senna not on Pole in Donnington? Because he was in a well underpowered Ford Engined McLaren that had worse engines than both the Williams and Benettons. What clouds people's judgement in that race isn't that fact though, many people don't take account of the fact that Senna's car had Traction Control and Active Suspension, as did the Williams, though many other cars on the grid didn't - so he had more of an advantage than just his driving there.

Prost is an amazing driver too. I can't believe how competitive he remains into his mid-50's. As I say, I love watching him race, he is likely the most intelligent racer ever to have lived. How he stays consistently at the top amazes me, it really does. I genuinely think (and I'm honestly not joking), he could step back into a F1 car right now, and with the same testing as everyone else still be competitive at the top. I'm not joking, and people can laugh at me all they want, I genuinely believe that. Physically he is still in amazing shape and his reactions are sharp as they ever have been. It'll never happen, and sadly I doubt we'll ever see a F1 driver again racing into their 50's (or perhaps even their 40's once Schumacher finally retires), which I think is a shame.

Prost and Senna, both legends, but in my mind totally different and uncomparable as racers. Just my opinion, but I just can't see it.
#238803
not long at all, but i dont see why that should be held against me, when there isnt a race on im reading about races of the past etc, which i think more pepople should do as they might realise that prost>senna :yes::D


Nothings being held against you, my meaning was that firsthand experience means more than reading or whatching reruns or short clips. How many times do you hear "Oh dude I read about that and it was bogus" and then you can say "Well frankly I witnessed it firsthand and your just a tad off" or "this is really what/how it happened". :wink:



No i agree, and in thirty years if F1s still going i wouldnt and dont plan to hold it against those who have only watched since 2025 when mr.roboto burst on the sscene driving the ferrari cyborg-4550. But still i find it hard to take that Prost is mentioned only really as a good driver and one of the 80's greats, he was amazing! and from what ive read, even through the Senna biased stuff, Prost takes the best ever for me. I mean in 1988 he got more points then Senna but the points system only classified your best 11 results, in which Senna had more wins.


Having watched them race at the time, I don't think the two are even comparable so it depends on what you are looking for to decide on what you class as criteria to be the best.

If you look for pure intelligence and the ability to plan and make contingencies, strategy, the ability to look after a car whilst still being faster than 95% of the field most of the time then Prost is your man.

If on the other hand you're looking for pure out and out speed and driving on instinct with the ability to not just be quick, but to utterly dominate everyone on his day to the ridiculous extent (pole by over 2 seconds to second place??), then it is unquestionably Senna - that's not even something that can be debated.

I love watching Prost drive and still watch his every race in the Andros Trophee - interestingly enough he could be this weekend about to fall foul of the same situation as in '88 with Senna. He's currently leading the championship by 3 points from Dayraut in second place, but at the end of the season for the championship, each driver's worst weekend (2 races!) are written off. Prost has been consistently good, so Dayraut's worst is of course worse than Prosts meaning even though Prost leads the championship technically now, he will be behind after the weekend unless he wins at least one of the races... history repeats itself....



totally comparable, correct me if im wrong but was the same race Senna qualified in monaco by over a second the same one he crashed out of despite not even racing anyone?

And tell me when Senna overtook 5 cars on one lap on wet donington in 1993, why was Senna starting that far back in the first place.


People should stop assuming Senna got pole by over a second in every race he competed in, or that he was the ultimate gentleman driver, he was dirty as schumacher is, and he was beaten to first place numerous times by prost.

Now i dont hate Senna, i just dont rate him above Prost, every other driver ever yes, but not prost. All too often the best drivers ever are the most aggressive ones that get fans on their speed (senna,hamilton,alonso,schumacher,vettel,mansell and so on) but Prost came in and had the cheek to win races through pure genius thinking and smooth style. Something nobody has since emulated, Jenson is on the same track but nowhere close. And in the season of 88 when Senna won the title over Prost, Prost actually had more points, the stupid system only counted the best results.

I respect that you saw these two racing for yourself, but the evidence isnt destroyed, i have found enough of it to form a decent enough opinion on the matter, if Senna hadnt been killed......well hed have have as less status as he does.


Here's the problem though with not having watched at the time. Senna already was looked on as a legend well before he died. Probably from around 1991 / 1992 even the British media and experts started to warm to him. By the start of 1994 it was a foregone conclusion in 99% of people's eyes that Senna would walk the title.

Ridiculous to cite the crash in Monaco, when he won something like 5 consecutive Monaco races after that.

I never said I disagreed that Prost was very quick - I said he was consistently faster than 95% of the field, and that was including racing against very fast drivers and cars in opposition.

Where did I say Senna was a gentleman driver? I know you didn't specifically say it to me, but in your post that is what is inferred. I know full well Senna was super-aggressive at times, and for likely around 5 years pretty much hated by the British media in particular, but that's not what made him quick. Senna was quick in all conditions, that's the thing - he was fast in dry, wet, tight slow tracks, fast sweeping tracks, even through traffic.

Again, aside from the fact they were team-mates, their driving styles are simply not comparable. They're both multiple world champions, so obviously both two of the best ever, but their driving styles being totally different means that it does depend on what you are looking for in a racer as I originally said.

Of course it's true to say that Prost scored more points than Senna - but all drivers on the grid started the season knowing full well how the championship was decided. Who's to say that is the system was based purely on points that Senna might not have eased off a bit in a couple of races and his car may have lasted the distance to pick up more points? Who's to say he didn't just go for it hell for leather because he knew that only Wins and podiums would cut it? Nobody that's who, we don't know and we never will. All we know is that under the conditions at the time, Senna was champion that season. Nothing can change that.

Why was Senna not on Pole in Donnington? Because he was in a well underpowered Ford Engined McLaren that had worse engines than both the Williams and Benettons. What clouds people's judgement in that race isn't that fact though, many people don't take account of the fact that Senna's car had Traction Control and Active Suspension, as did the Williams, though many other cars on the grid didn't - so he had more of an advantage than just his driving there.

Prost is an amazing driver too. I can't believe how competitive he remains into his mid-50's. As I say, I love watching him race, he is likely the most intelligent racer ever to have lived. How he stays consistently at the top amazes me, it really does. I genuinely think (and I'm honestly not joking), he could step back into a F1 car right now, and with the same testing as everyone else still be competitive at the top. I'm not joking, and people can laugh at me all they want, I genuinely believe that. Physically he is still in amazing shape and his reactions are sharp as they ever have been. It'll never happen, and sadly I doubt we'll ever see a F1 driver again racing into their 50's (or perhaps even their 40's once Schumacher finally retires), which I think is a shame.

Prost and Senna, both legends, but in my mind totally different and uncomparable as racers. Just my opinion, but I just can't see it.


Why does the fact Senna crashed once and won 5 mean that the crash should be totally forgotten, THIS is the problem with the Senna fanboyism, and it is fanboyism, its worship. We cant just say Senna was perfect, or the times Senna made mistakes dont count cause the times he was flawless outweigh them. We cant just say that, they call you Schumi fanboys if you believe Schumacher was better then Senna, doesnt matter what reasoning, your a fanboy, its like a foregone conclusion that Senna was the greatest, despite there being more then a reasonable claim otherwise. On Top Gear they asked the drivers and they didnt even hesitate before saying Senna as greatest. You know what i infer from that, that its ludicrous for anyone to even think about it, and that if you dont say Senna your a lunatic.

So yeah, the fact that he crashed at Monaco does count, won it 5 times, more then impressive, but hes held up as a God in general opinion, and hes not.

Super-agressive? Is this the same super-agressive that is reworded as dirty when its Schumacher? He was dirty.as a pig in muck. Schumacher knocks Hill of for a championship and hes a total bar steward but Senna does it to Prost cause he doesnt like the rules and hes a saviour of justice. Which reminds me, where people think Prost took Senna out in 89 i dont know, looks clearly like a do or die late break that was never going to work from Senna.


I could go on, i could mention the fact Senna used Prosts setups in their time at Mclarenand so on but i think you get my drift.
#238807
not long at all, but i dont see why that should be held against me, when there isnt a race on im reading about races of the past etc, which i think more pepople should do as they might realise that prost>senna :yes::D


Nothings being held against you, my meaning was that firsthand experience means more than reading or whatching reruns or short clips. How many times do you hear "Oh dude I read about that and it was bogus" and then you can say "Well frankly I witnessed it firsthand and your just a tad off" or "this is really what/how it happened". :wink:



No i agree, and in thirty years if F1s still going i wouldnt and dont plan to hold it against those who have only watched since 2025 when mr.roboto burst on the sscene driving the ferrari cyborg-4550. But still i find it hard to take that Prost is mentioned only really as a good driver and one of the 80's greats, he was amazing! and from what ive read, even through the Senna biased stuff, Prost takes the best ever for me. I mean in 1988 he got more points then Senna but the points system only classified your best 11 results, in which Senna had more wins.


Having watched them race at the time, I don't think the two are even comparable so it depends on what you are looking for to decide on what you class as criteria to be the best.

If you look for pure intelligence and the ability to plan and make contingencies, strategy, the ability to look after a car whilst still being faster than 95% of the field most of the time then Prost is your man.

If on the other hand you're looking for pure out and out speed and driving on instinct with the ability to not just be quick, but to utterly dominate everyone on his day to the ridiculous extent (pole by over 2 seconds to second place??), then it is unquestionably Senna - that's not even something that can be debated.

I love watching Prost drive and still watch his every race in the Andros Trophee - interestingly enough he could be this weekend about to fall foul of the same situation as in '88 with Senna. He's currently leading the championship by 3 points from Dayraut in second place, but at the end of the season for the championship, each driver's worst weekend (2 races!) are written off. Prost has been consistently good, so Dayraut's worst is of course worse than Prosts meaning even though Prost leads the championship technically now, he will be behind after the weekend unless he wins at least one of the races... history repeats itself....



totally comparable, correct me if im wrong but was the same race Senna qualified in monaco by over a second the same one he crashed out of despite not even racing anyone?

And tell me when Senna overtook 5 cars on one lap on wet donington in 1993, why was Senna starting that far back in the first place.


People should stop assuming Senna got pole by over a second in every race he competed in, or that he was the ultimate gentleman driver, he was dirty as schumacher is, and he was beaten to first place numerous times by prost.

Now i dont hate Senna, i just dont rate him above Prost, every other driver ever yes, but not prost. All too often the best drivers ever are the most aggressive ones that get fans on their speed (senna,hamilton,alonso,schumacher,vettel,mansell and so on) but Prost came in and had the cheek to win races through pure genius thinking and smooth style. Something nobody has since emulated, Jenson is on the same track but nowhere close. And in the season of 88 when Senna won the title over Prost, Prost actually had more points, the stupid system only counted the best results.

I respect that you saw these two racing for yourself, but the evidence isnt destroyed, i have found enough of it to form a decent enough opinion on the matter, if Senna hadnt been killed......well hed have have as less status as he does.


Here's the problem though with not having watched at the time. Senna already was looked on as a legend well before he died. Probably from around 1991 / 1992 even the British media and experts started to warm to him. By the start of 1994 it was a foregone conclusion in 99% of people's eyes that Senna would walk the title.

Ridiculous to cite the crash in Monaco, when he won something like 5 consecutive Monaco races after that.

I never said I disagreed that Prost was very quick - I said he was consistently faster than 95% of the field, and that was including racing against very fast drivers and cars in opposition.

Where did I say Senna was a gentleman driver? I know you didn't specifically say it to me, but in your post that is what is inferred. I know full well Senna was super-aggressive at times, and for likely around 5 years pretty much hated by the British media in particular, but that's not what made him quick. Senna was quick in all conditions, that's the thing - he was fast in dry, wet, tight slow tracks, fast sweeping tracks, even through traffic.

Again, aside from the fact they were team-mates, their driving styles are simply not comparable. They're both multiple world champions, so obviously both two of the best ever, but their driving styles being totally different means that it does depend on what you are looking for in a racer as I originally said.

Of course it's true to say that Prost scored more points than Senna - but all drivers on the grid started the season knowing full well how the championship was decided. Who's to say that is the system was based purely on points that Senna might not have eased off a bit in a couple of races and his car may have lasted the distance to pick up more points? Who's to say he didn't just go for it hell for leather because he knew that only Wins and podiums would cut it? Nobody that's who, we don't know and we never will. All we know is that under the conditions at the time, Senna was champion that season. Nothing can change that.

Why was Senna not on Pole in Donnington? Because he was in a well underpowered Ford Engined McLaren that had worse engines than both the Williams and Benettons. What clouds people's judgement in that race isn't that fact though, many people don't take account of the fact that Senna's car had Traction Control and Active Suspension, as did the Williams, though many other cars on the grid didn't - so he had more of an advantage than just his driving there.

Prost is an amazing driver too. I can't believe how competitive he remains into his mid-50's. As I say, I love watching him race, he is likely the most intelligent racer ever to have lived. How he stays consistently at the top amazes me, it really does. I genuinely think (and I'm honestly not joking), he could step back into a F1 car right now, and with the same testing as everyone else still be competitive at the top. I'm not joking, and people can laugh at me all they want, I genuinely believe that. Physically he is still in amazing shape and his reactions are sharp as they ever have been. It'll never happen, and sadly I doubt we'll ever see a F1 driver again racing into their 50's (or perhaps even their 40's once Schumacher finally retires), which I think is a shame.

Prost and Senna, both legends, but in my mind totally different and uncomparable as racers. Just my opinion, but I just can't see it.


Why does the fact Senna crashed once and won 5 mean that the crash should be totally forgotten, THIS is the problem with the Senna fanboyism, and it is fanboyism, its worship. We cant just say Senna was perfect, or the times Senna made mistakes dont count cause the times he was flawless outweigh them. We cant just say that, they call you Schumi fanboys if you believe Schumacher was better then Senna, doesnt matter what reasoning, your a fanboy, its like a foregone conclusion that Senna was the greatest, despite there being more then a reasonable claim otherwise. On Top Gear they asked the drivers and they didnt even hesitate before saying Senna as greatest. You know what i infer from that, that its ludicrous for anyone to even think about it, and that if you dont say Senna your a lunatic.

So yeah, the fact that he crashed at Monaco does count, won it 5 times, more then impressive, but hes held up as a God in general opinion, and hes not.

Super-agressive? Is this the same super-agressive that is reworded as dirty when its Schumacher? He was dirty.as a pig in muck. Schumacher knocks Hill of for a championship and hes a total bar steward but Senna does it to Prost cause he doesnt like the rules and hes a saviour of justice. Which reminds me, where people think Prost took Senna out in 89 i dont know, looks clearly like a do or die late break that was never going to work from Senna.


I could go on, i could mention the fact Senna used Prosts setups in their time at Mclarenand so on but i think you get my drift.


but you have to admit he was
#238810
not long at all, but i dont see why that should be held against me, when there isnt a race on im reading about races of the past etc, which i think more pepople should do as they might realise that prost>senna :yes::D


Nothings being held against you, my meaning was that firsthand experience means more than reading or whatching reruns or short clips. How many times do you hear "Oh dude I read about that and it was bogus" and then you can say "Well frankly I witnessed it firsthand and your just a tad off" or "this is really what/how it happened". :wink:



No i agree, and in thirty years if F1s still going i wouldnt and dont plan to hold it against those who have only watched since 2025 when mr.roboto burst on the sscene driving the ferrari cyborg-4550. But still i find it hard to take that Prost is mentioned only really as a good driver and one of the 80's greats, he was amazing! and from what ive read, even through the Senna biased stuff, Prost takes the best ever for me. I mean in 1988 he got more points then Senna but the points system only classified your best 11 results, in which Senna had more wins.


Having watched them race at the time, I don't think the two are even comparable so it depends on what you are looking for to decide on what you class as criteria to be the best.

If you look for pure intelligence and the ability to plan and make contingencies, strategy, the ability to look after a car whilst still being faster than 95% of the field most of the time then Prost is your man.

If on the other hand you're looking for pure out and out speed and driving on instinct with the ability to not just be quick, but to utterly dominate everyone on his day to the ridiculous extent (pole by over 2 seconds to second place??), then it is unquestionably Senna - that's not even something that can be debated.

I love watching Prost drive and still watch his every race in the Andros Trophee - interestingly enough he could be this weekend about to fall foul of the same situation as in '88 with Senna. He's currently leading the championship by 3 points from Dayraut in second place, but at the end of the season for the championship, each driver's worst weekend (2 races!) are written off. Prost has been consistently good, so Dayraut's worst is of course worse than Prosts meaning even though Prost leads the championship technically now, he will be behind after the weekend unless he wins at least one of the races... history repeats itself....



totally comparable, correct me if im wrong but was the same race Senna qualified in monaco by over a second the same one he crashed out of despite not even racing anyone?

And tell me when Senna overtook 5 cars on one lap on wet donington in 1993, why was Senna starting that far back in the first place.


People should stop assuming Senna got pole by over a second in every race he competed in, or that he was the ultimate gentleman driver, he was dirty as schumacher is, and he was beaten to first place numerous times by prost.

Now i dont hate Senna, i just dont rate him above Prost, every other driver ever yes, but not prost. All too often the best drivers ever are the most aggressive ones that get fans on their speed (senna,hamilton,alonso,schumacher,vettel,mansell and so on) but Prost came in and had the cheek to win races through pure genius thinking and smooth style. Something nobody has since emulated, Jenson is on the same track but nowhere close. And in the season of 88 when Senna won the title over Prost, Prost actually had more points, the stupid system only counted the best results.

I respect that you saw these two racing for yourself, but the evidence isnt destroyed, i have found enough of it to form a decent enough opinion on the matter, if Senna hadnt been killed......well hed have have as less status as he does.


Here's the problem though with not having watched at the time. Senna already was looked on as a legend well before he died. Probably from around 1991 / 1992 even the British media and experts started to warm to him. By the start of 1994 it was a foregone conclusion in 99% of people's eyes that Senna would walk the title.

Ridiculous to cite the crash in Monaco, when he won something like 5 consecutive Monaco races after that.

I never said I disagreed that Prost was very quick - I said he was consistently faster than 95% of the field, and that was including racing against very fast drivers and cars in opposition.

Where did I say Senna was a gentleman driver? I know you didn't specifically say it to me, but in your post that is what is inferred. I know full well Senna was super-aggressive at times, and for likely around 5 years pretty much hated by the British media in particular, but that's not what made him quick. Senna was quick in all conditions, that's the thing - he was fast in dry, wet, tight slow tracks, fast sweeping tracks, even through traffic.

Again, aside from the fact they were team-mates, their driving styles are simply not comparable. They're both multiple world champions, so obviously both two of the best ever, but their driving styles being totally different means that it does depend on what you are looking for in a racer as I originally said.

Of course it's true to say that Prost scored more points than Senna - but all drivers on the grid started the season knowing full well how the championship was decided. Who's to say that is the system was based purely on points that Senna might not have eased off a bit in a couple of races and his car may have lasted the distance to pick up more points? Who's to say he didn't just go for it hell for leather because he knew that only Wins and podiums would cut it? Nobody that's who, we don't know and we never will. All we know is that under the conditions at the time, Senna was champion that season. Nothing can change that.

Why was Senna not on Pole in Donnington? Because he was in a well underpowered Ford Engined McLaren that had worse engines than both the Williams and Benettons. What clouds people's judgement in that race isn't that fact though, many people don't take account of the fact that Senna's car had Traction Control and Active Suspension, as did the Williams, though many other cars on the grid didn't - so he had more of an advantage than just his driving there.

Prost is an amazing driver too. I can't believe how competitive he remains into his mid-50's. As I say, I love watching him race, he is likely the most intelligent racer ever to have lived. How he stays consistently at the top amazes me, it really does. I genuinely think (and I'm honestly not joking), he could step back into a F1 car right now, and with the same testing as everyone else still be competitive at the top. I'm not joking, and people can laugh at me all they want, I genuinely believe that. Physically he is still in amazing shape and his reactions are sharp as they ever have been. It'll never happen, and sadly I doubt we'll ever see a F1 driver again racing into their 50's (or perhaps even their 40's once Schumacher finally retires), which I think is a shame.

Prost and Senna, both legends, but in my mind totally different and uncomparable as racers. Just my opinion, but I just can't see it.


Why does the fact Senna crashed once and won 5 mean that the crash should be totally forgotten, THIS is the problem with the Senna fanboyism, and it is fanboyism, its worship. We cant just say Senna was perfect, or the times Senna made mistakes dont count cause the times he was flawless outweigh them. We cant just say that, they call you Schumi fanboys if you believe Schumacher was better then Senna, doesnt matter what reasoning, your a fanboy, its like a foregone conclusion that Senna was the greatest, despite there being more then a reasonable claim otherwise. On Top Gear they asked the drivers and they didnt even hesitate before saying Senna as greatest. You know what i infer from that, that its ludicrous for anyone to even think about it, and that if you dont say Senna your a lunatic.

So yeah, the fact that he crashed at Monaco does count, won it 5 times, more then impressive, but hes held up as a God in general opinion, and hes not.

Super-agressive? Is this the same super-agressive that is reworded as dirty when its Schumacher? He was dirty.as a pig in muck. Schumacher knocks Hill of for a championship and hes a total bar steward but Senna does it to Prost cause he doesnt like the rules and hes a saviour of justice. Which reminds me, where people think Prost took Senna out in 89 i dont know, looks clearly like a do or die late break that was never going to work from Senna.


I could go on, i could mention the fact Senna used Prosts setups in their time at Mclarenand so on but i think you get my drift.


but you have to admit he was


admit he was........? im lost
#238816
not long at all, but i dont see why that should be held against me, when there isnt a race on im reading about races of the past etc, which i think more pepople should do as they might realise that prost>senna :yes::D


Nothings being held against you, my meaning was that firsthand experience means more than reading or whatching reruns or short clips. How many times do you hear "Oh dude I read about that and it was bogus" and then you can say "Well frankly I witnessed it firsthand and your just a tad off" or "this is really what/how it happened". :wink:



No i agree, and in thirty years if F1s still going i wouldnt and dont plan to hold it against those who have only watched since 2025 when mr.roboto burst on the sscene driving the ferrari cyborg-4550. But still i find it hard to take that Prost is mentioned only really as a good driver and one of the 80's greats, he was amazing! and from what ive read, even through the Senna biased stuff, Prost takes the best ever for me. I mean in 1988 he got more points then Senna but the points system only classified your best 11 results, in which Senna had more wins.


Having watched them race at the time, I don't think the two are even comparable so it depends on what you are looking for to decide on what you class as criteria to be the best.

If you look for pure intelligence and the ability to plan and make contingencies, strategy, the ability to look after a car whilst still being faster than 95% of the field most of the time then Prost is your man.

If on the other hand you're looking for pure out and out speed and driving on instinct with the ability to not just be quick, but to utterly dominate everyone on his day to the ridiculous extent (pole by over 2 seconds to second place??), then it is unquestionably Senna - that's not even something that can be debated.

I love watching Prost drive and still watch his every race in the Andros Trophee - interestingly enough he could be this weekend about to fall foul of the same situation as in '88 with Senna. He's currently leading the championship by 3 points from Dayraut in second place, but at the end of the season for the championship, each driver's worst weekend (2 races!) are written off. Prost has been consistently good, so Dayraut's worst is of course worse than Prosts meaning even though Prost leads the championship technically now, he will be behind after the weekend unless he wins at least one of the races... history repeats itself....



totally comparable, correct me if im wrong but was the same race Senna qualified in monaco by over a second the same one he crashed out of despite not even racing anyone?

And tell me when Senna overtook 5 cars on one lap on wet donington in 1993, why was Senna starting that far back in the first place.


People should stop assuming Senna got pole by over a second in every race he competed in, or that he was the ultimate gentleman driver, he was dirty as schumacher is, and he was beaten to first place numerous times by prost.

Now i dont hate Senna, i just dont rate him above Prost, every other driver ever yes, but not prost. All too often the best drivers ever are the most aggressive ones that get fans on their speed (senna,hamilton,alonso,schumacher,vettel,mansell and so on) but Prost came in and had the cheek to win races through pure genius thinking and smooth style. Something nobody has since emulated, Jenson is on the same track but nowhere close. And in the season of 88 when Senna won the title over Prost, Prost actually had more points, the stupid system only counted the best results.

I respect that you saw these two racing for yourself, but the evidence isnt destroyed, i have found enough of it to form a decent enough opinion on the matter, if Senna hadnt been killed......well hed have have as less status as he does.


Here's the problem though with not having watched at the time. Senna already was looked on as a legend well before he died. Probably from around 1991 / 1992 even the British media and experts started to warm to him. By the start of 1994 it was a foregone conclusion in 99% of people's eyes that Senna would walk the title.

Ridiculous to cite the crash in Monaco, when he won something like 5 consecutive Monaco races after that.

I never said I disagreed that Prost was very quick - I said he was consistently faster than 95% of the field, and that was including racing against very fast drivers and cars in opposition.

Where did I say Senna was a gentleman driver? I know you didn't specifically say it to me, but in your post that is what is inferred. I know full well Senna was super-aggressive at times, and for likely around 5 years pretty much hated by the British media in particular, but that's not what made him quick. Senna was quick in all conditions, that's the thing - he was fast in dry, wet, tight slow tracks, fast sweeping tracks, even through traffic.

Again, aside from the fact they were team-mates, their driving styles are simply not comparable. They're both multiple world champions, so obviously both two of the best ever, but their driving styles being totally different means that it does depend on what you are looking for in a racer as I originally said.

Of course it's true to say that Prost scored more points than Senna - but all drivers on the grid started the season knowing full well how the championship was decided. Who's to say that is the system was based purely on points that Senna might not have eased off a bit in a couple of races and his car may have lasted the distance to pick up more points? Who's to say he didn't just go for it hell for leather because he knew that only Wins and podiums would cut it? Nobody that's who, we don't know and we never will. All we know is that under the conditions at the time, Senna was champion that season. Nothing can change that.

Why was Senna not on Pole in Donnington? Because he was in a well underpowered Ford Engined McLaren that had worse engines than both the Williams and Benettons. What clouds people's judgement in that race isn't that fact though, many people don't take account of the fact that Senna's car had Traction Control and Active Suspension, as did the Williams, though many other cars on the grid didn't - so he had more of an advantage than just his driving there.

Prost is an amazing driver too. I can't believe how competitive he remains into his mid-50's. As I say, I love watching him race, he is likely the most intelligent racer ever to have lived. How he stays consistently at the top amazes me, it really does. I genuinely think (and I'm honestly not joking), he could step back into a F1 car right now, and with the same testing as everyone else still be competitive at the top. I'm not joking, and people can laugh at me all they want, I genuinely believe that. Physically he is still in amazing shape and his reactions are sharp as they ever have been. It'll never happen, and sadly I doubt we'll ever see a F1 driver again racing into their 50's (or perhaps even their 40's once Schumacher finally retires), which I think is a shame.

Prost and Senna, both legends, but in my mind totally different and uncomparable as racers. Just my opinion, but I just can't see it.


Why does the fact Senna crashed once and won 5 mean that the crash should be totally forgotten, THIS is the problem with the Senna fanboyism, and it is fanboyism, its worship. We cant just say Senna was perfect, or the times Senna made mistakes dont count cause the times he was flawless outweigh them. We cant just say that, they call you Schumi fanboys if you believe Schumacher was better then Senna, doesnt matter what reasoning, your a fanboy, its like a foregone conclusion that Senna was the greatest, despite there being more then a reasonable claim otherwise. On Top Gear they asked the drivers and they didnt even hesitate before saying Senna as greatest. You know what i infer from that, that its ludicrous for anyone to even think about it, and that if you dont say Senna your a lunatic.

So yeah, the fact that he crashed at Monaco does count, won it 5 times, more then impressive, but hes held up as a God in general opinion, and hes not.

Super-agressive? Is this the same super-agressive that is reworded as dirty when its Schumacher? He was dirty.as a pig in muck. Schumacher knocks Hill of for a championship and hes a total bar steward but Senna does it to Prost cause he doesnt like the rules and hes a saviour of justice. Which reminds me, where people think Prost took Senna out in 89 i dont know, looks clearly like a do or die late break that was never going to work from Senna.


I could go on, i could mention the fact Senna used Prosts setups in their time at Mclarenand so on but i think you get my drift.


but you have to admit he was


admit he was........? im lost


ah dont worry, :) if i say what i was going to say id probably miss the point
#238845
FRAFPDD, I'm not going to quote because the length of quotes on this thread is bordering on insane... All I'll say is that you keep on putting words in my mouth that I haven't said, or opinions on me that simply aren't true.

1. I'm nobody's fanboy - if you check your facts you'll see that I'm one of the few who has been a big Schumacher supporter etc. in various threads. I'm not a fanboy for Senna, for Schumacher, for Hamilton, for Vettel or for anybody else.

2. What I am is a professional researcher. Qualified and paid for doing it (research counts for 40% of my annual workload in the university I work at as a lecturer). Objectivity runs in my blood so you can be quite sure that everything (literally everything) I say is considered and balanced based on information from both sides. So I'm afraid you couldn't be further from the truth on that one. I'm quite sure that anyone who has the willpower to read through any of my (usually too) long posts on this forum would be able to ascertain that pretty easily.

3. Even on this thread, I've been objective and praised both of the drivers that were being discussed.

4. To the contrary, you seem to have an almost irrational dislike of Senna regardless of your assertion otherwise.

That's just how I see it from the things you've posted.

I stand by and still firmly believe everything I've said on the subject of both drivers.

That's the last I'll say on the thread as otherwise I sense it will begin to go round in circles.

No hard feelings! :)
#238847
FRAFPDD, I'm not going to quote because the length of quotes on this thread is bordering on insane... All I'll say is that you keep on putting words in my mouth that I haven't said, or opinions on me that simply aren't true.

1. I'm nobody's fanboy - if you check your facts you'll see that I'm one of the few who has been a big Schumacher supporter etc. in various threads. I'm not a fanboy for Senna, for Schumacher, for Hamilton, for Vettel or for anybody else.

2. What I am is a professional researcher. Qualified and paid for doing it (research counts for 40% of my annual workload in the university I work at as a lecturer). Objectivity runs in my blood so you can be quite sure that everything (literally everything) I say is considered and balanced based on information from both sides. So I'm afraid you couldn't be further from the truth on that one. I'm quite sure that anyone who has the willpower to read through any of my (usually too) long posts on this forum would be able to ascertain that pretty easily.

3. Even on this thread, I've been objective and praised both of the drivers that were being discussed.

4. To the contrary, you seem to have an almost irrational dislike of Senna regardless of your assertion otherwise.

That's just how I see it from the things you've posted.

I stand by and still firmly believe everything I've said on the subject of both drivers.

That's the last I'll say on the thread as otherwise I sense it will begin to go round in circles.

No hard feelings! :)


Your response is too long so I won't read through it, I'll just assume that it's irrational and not thought out at all. :twisted:
#238853
FRAFPDD, I'm not going to quote because the length of quotes on this thread is bordering on insane... All I'll say is that you keep on putting words in my mouth that I haven't said, or opinions on me that simply aren't true.

1. I'm nobody's fanboy - if you check your facts you'll see that I'm one of the few who has been a big Schumacher supporter etc. in various threads. I'm not a fanboy for Senna, for Schumacher, for Hamilton, for Vettel or for anybody else.

2. What I am is a professional researcher. Qualified and paid for doing it (research counts for 40% of my annual workload in the university I work at as a lecturer). Objectivity runs in my blood so you can be quite sure that everything (literally everything) I say is considered and balanced based on information from both sides. So I'm afraid you couldn't be further from the truth on that one. I'm quite sure that anyone who has the willpower to read through any of my (usually too) long posts on this forum would be able to ascertain that pretty easily.

3. Even on this thread, I've been objective and praised both of the drivers that were being discussed.

4. To the contrary, you seem to have an almost irrational dislike of Senna regardless of your assertion otherwise.

That's just how I see it from the things you've posted.

I stand by and still firmly believe everything I've said on the subject of both drivers.

That's the last I'll say on the thread as otherwise I sense it will begin to go round in circles.

No hard feelings! :)


Im sorry but this really isnt fair, we were simply debating it, which i thought this forum was for.

You think i dislike Senna, no i just like Prost more, and all i was attempting to do was provide evidence to Senna not being the greatest, think about that for a second, the fact Senna is held up by most to be the best ever, means that to anyone who doesnt think so, the only way is down, its going to seem like i dont like him, but i did mention a couple of times at least this isnt the case.

So i must apologise i have no dislike of any driver past or present. Never will. I just have preferences.

The one thing i do have a bit of an itch with is that you even think im putting words in your mouth. I dont know why you came to that conclusion, it should be clear from what i posted that its ludicrous to assume i was calling you a fanboy or even a Senna fan! You were just the opposite side in terms of what we are, well were now youve finished, debating.

And being a researcher at university lecturer, you didnt need to explain that as ive said i wasnt calling you biased etc, but fair enough. Although i do hope fand believe from that that you dont believe that gives your opinion more water then mine, but i dont think you meant that.

Lastly, i too often come across as agressive in my opinion, i try to kerb it as much as i can i think i just naturally have that demeanour(?spelling) but theres no need for the no hard feelings stuff, i dont have any towards anyone on here and i believe nobody holds any against me. So i apologise if i did sound bitchy!
#238874
FRAFPDD, I'm not going to quote because the length of quotes on this thread is bordering on insane... All I'll say is that you keep on putting words in my mouth that I haven't said, or opinions on me that simply aren't true.

1. I'm nobody's fanboy - if you check your facts you'll see that I'm one of the few who has been a big Schumacher supporter etc. in various threads. I'm not a fanboy for Senna, for Schumacher, for Hamilton, for Vettel or for anybody else.

2. What I am is a professional researcher. Qualified and paid for doing it (research counts for 40% of my annual workload in the university I work at as a lecturer). Objectivity runs in my blood so you can be quite sure that everything (literally everything) I say is considered and balanced based on information from both sides. So I'm afraid you couldn't be further from the truth on that one. I'm quite sure that anyone who has the willpower to read through any of my (usually too) long posts on this forum would be able to ascertain that pretty easily.

3. Even on this thread, I've been objective and praised both of the drivers that were being discussed.

4. To the contrary, you seem to have an almost irrational dislike of Senna regardless of your assertion otherwise.

That's just how I see it from the things you've posted.

I stand by and still firmly believe everything I've said on the subject of both drivers.

That's the last I'll say on the thread as otherwise I sense it will begin to go round in circles.

No hard feelings! :)


Im sorry but this really isnt fair, we were simply debating it, which i thought this forum was for.

You think i dislike Senna, no i just like Prost more, and all i was attempting to do was provide evidence to Senna not being the greatest, think about that for a second, the fact Senna is held up by most to be the best ever, means that to anyone who doesnt think so, the only way is down, its going to seem like i dont like him, but i did mention a couple of times at least this isnt the case.

So i must apologise i have no dislike of any driver past or present. Never will. I just have preferences.

The one thing i do have a bit of an itch with is that you even think im putting words in your mouth. I dont know why you came to that conclusion, it should be clear from what i posted that its ludicrous to assume i was calling you a fanboy or even a Senna fan! You were just the opposite side in terms of what we are, well were now youve finished, debating.

And being a researcher at university lecturer, you didnt need to explain that as ive said i wasnt calling you biased etc, but fair enough. Although i do hope fand believe from that that you dont believe that gives your opinion more water then mine, but i dont think you meant that.

Lastly, i too often come across as agressive in my opinion, i try to kerb it as much as i can i think i just naturally have that demeanour(?spelling) but theres no need for the no hard feelings stuff, i dont have any towards anyone on here and i believe nobody holds any against me. So i apologise if i did sound bitchy!

Yo sure?

Just kidding :P
#238891
How did this get turned into another driver debate? zurich_allan your post are just fine imo :wink: . Now back too the topic lady's and gent's, please :) ?
#238893
How did this get turned into another driver debate? zurich_allan your post are just fine imo :wink: . Now back too the topic lady's and gent's, please :) ?


It's better than Alonso V Lewis though, they even ended up holding hands and smiling instead of a blood bath.
  • 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 10

See our F1 related articles too!